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Owarikenshi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's alright--the end of the month is coming! Then you've got a clean slate for more ama-zoning, right? Smile JIN is worth the wait.

Went over my limit finally scoring a copy of Totman's Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu, followed by a lapse into Edo-jidai decadence with the VIZ editions of "Ooku: The Inner Chamber."

Naughty naughty

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Owarikenshi wrote:
Went over my limit finally scoring a copy of Totman's Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu,
Owari


I enjoyed this book but its been a few years since I read. I feel like I want to read it again.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Owarikenshi wrote:
That's alright--the end of the month is coming! Then you've got a clean slate for more ama-zoning, right? Smile JIN is worth the wait.

Went over my limit finally scoring a copy of Totman's Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu, followed by a lapse into Edo-jidai decadence with the VIZ editions of "Ooku: The Inner Chamber."

Naughty naughty

Owari
Ah, gee, Owari, you listed a book I actually *don't* have and would like to get. Add another one to the list! I should probably focus on reading the ones I have first, as that doesn't cost anything, and I'll be shelling out $150 for dirt (yes, DIRT!) at the first of the month... Just Kidding I guess THEN I can worry about the bootlegging hoohah; til then, it's time to play "Beat the Pests, Wild Animals and Weeds!"
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't own Totman's book on the collapse of the Bakufu, nor do I plan on buying it for a pile of money. I heard it is rather dry compared to Beasley's massive book on the same topic, and Beasley is the MAN. I love Beasley's book.

I also wasn't a fan of Totman's bio of Ieyasu. However, I do have many academic papers that Totman has published on the Bakumatsu and I find those quite interesting.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:

I also wasn't a fan of Totman's bio of Ieyasu.


Yeah, I agree. It's got some good information in there but, from memory, it jumps around quite a bit. Been awhile since I read through it though.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I don't own Totman's book on the collapse of the Bakufu, nor do I plan on buying it for a pile of money. I heard it is rather dry compared to Beasley's massive book on the same topic, and Beasley is the MAN. I love Beasley's book.

I also wasn't a fan of Totman's bio of Ieyasu. However, I do have many academic papers that Totman has published on the Bakumatsu and I find those quite interesting.


Which Beasley book are you specifically referring to?

I also agree with your assessment of his bio of Ieyasu. The book was just marginal.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:


"Beat the Pests, Wild Animals and Weeds!"


Believe me, Onna, I can relate to that! Because "Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself" a month early this year, I've been able to wave off the last 12 ton hay delivery, the better to spend it on books!

True confession, though--I managed to hit Amazon on a good day, and was able to pick up Totman's Collapse for a completely reasonable price.

Now who is this "Beasley" Obenjo-sama mentions? I'm not familiar with this book. Title?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You all can access amazon or google books or even don't know how to google this site and search under "Beasley and Meiji Restoration", yes? Did you guys even bother to check out the SA bookstore? Please don't tell me you are so lazy that you can't do any of this on your own and want to wait for me to give you the answer or did I already do that... Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't get it
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://astore.amazon.com/samurai-20/detail/0804708150
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
You all can access amazon or google books or even don't know how to google this site and search under "Beasley and Meiji Restoration", yes? Did you guys even bother to check out the SA bookstore? Please don't tell me you are so lazy that you can't do any of this on your own and want to wait for me to give you the answer or did I already do that... Laughing


I now have the book. Will read it soon.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
You all can access amazon or google books or even don't know how to google this site and search under "Beasley and Meiji Restoration", yes? Did you guys even bother to check out the SA bookstore? Please don't tell me you are so lazy that you can't do any of this on your own and want to wait for me to give you the answer or did I already do that... Laughing


I now have the book. Will read it soon.
Whoa, that price is prohibitive for me; I've got some massive landscaping and household expenses too, so I'll have to wait on it for awhile. I enjoyed Totman's Early Modern Japan; I wonder how his Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu compares in style. I used to skip through the former title, depending on what period I was interested in, but I found his attention to peripheral subjects like agriculture and land use interesting. A good overview, really, and the latter portions that cover the Bakumatsu era are more geared to the philosophies and early diplomatic events concerning the Russians. Nevertheless, I'm unfortunately too strapped to increase my library at the moment, although I'm being kept quite happy by the dual reading of Ooms' Tokugawa Ideology and Iwata's Okubo Toshimichi: The Bismarck of Japan .
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
onnamusha wrote:
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
You all can access amazon or google books or even don't know how to google this site and search under "Beasley and Meiji Restoration", yes? Did you guys even bother to check out the SA bookstore? Please don't tell me you are so lazy that you can't do any of this on your own and want to wait for me to give you the answer or did I already do that... Laughing


I now have the book. Will read it soon.
Whoa, that price is prohibitive for me; I've got some massive landscaping and household expenses too, so I'll have to wait on it for awhile. I enjoyed Totman's Early Modern Japan; I wonder how his Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu compares in style. I used to skip through the former title, depending on what period I was interested in, but I found his attention to peripheral subjects like agriculture and land use interesting. A good overview, really, and the latter portions that cover the Bakumatsu era are more geared to the philosophies and early diplomatic events concerning the Russians. Nevertheless, I'm unfortunately too strapped to increase my library at the moment, although I'm being kept quite happy by the dual reading of Ooms' Tokugawa Ideology and Iwata's Okubo Toshimichi: The Bismarck of Japan .


I'm just starting Totman's Collapse. Will let you know my impression after 10 chapters or so. "Big" book, this one's gonna take me awhile--looks yummy!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I don't own Totman's book on the collapse of the Bakufu, nor do I plan on buying it for a pile of money. I heard it is rather dry compared to Beasley's massive book on the same topic, and Beasley is the MAN. I love Beasley's book.

I also wasn't a fan of Totman's bio of Ieyasu. However, I do have many academic papers that Totman has published on the Bakumatsu and I find those quite interesting.


Now that I'm 44 pages into Totman's Collapse, Obenjo, I concur with you that it's "rather dry." I'm trying to read it cover-to-cover, a somewhat daunting exercise I'd only recommend to the most determined history "otaku." Densely packed with so much data you wonder how Totman could possibly even coordinate it all, it's heavy going but equally rewarding for those willing to persevere.

The book draws a very clear picture of just how closely Bakumatsu Japan resembled a hive of hornets someone (Perry) whacked with a baseball bat. Most importantly, it sets the stage and the script for the events that played out among the more well-known figures of history. Drama aplenty, but he makes you work for it.

Definitely a "keeper" for the committed researcher or historian of the period.

Owari
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Owarikenshi wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I don't own Totman's book on the collapse of the Bakufu, nor do I plan on buying it for a pile of money. I heard it is rather dry compared to Beasley's massive book on the same topic, and Beasley is the MAN. I love Beasley's book.

I also wasn't a fan of Totman's bio of Ieyasu. However, I do have many academic papers that Totman has published on the Bakumatsu and I find those quite interesting.


Now that I'm 44 pages into Totman's Collapse, Obenjo, I concur with you that it's "rather dry." I'm trying to read it cover-to-cover, a somewhat daunting exercise I'd only recommend to the most determined history "otaku." Densely packed with so much data you wonder how Totman could possibly even coordinate it all, it's heavy going but equally rewarding for those willing to persevere.

The book draws a very clear picture of just how closely Bakumatsu Japan resembled a hive of hornets someone (Perry) whacked with a baseball bat. Most importantly, it sets the stage and the script for the events that played out among the more well-known figures of history. Drama aplenty, but he makes you work for it.

Definitely a "keeper" for the committed researcher or historian of the period.

Owari


Hmm, I guess that makes me a history otaku since I got through it pretty quickly. Smile It's been 2 or 3 years since I read it so maybe I should pick it up again. However, since Obenjo informed me about Beasley's book on the Meiji Restoration, I want to read that next.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 the Bakumatsu Otaku wrote:

Hmm, I guess that makes me a history otaku since I got through it pretty quickly. Smile It's been 2 or 3 years since I read it so maybe I should pick it up again. However, since Obenjo informed me about Beasley's book on the Meiji Restoration, I want to read that next.
Well after you speed read Totman's book again or chop Beasley down to size, we are looking forward to reading some very meaty and insightful posts from you pertaining to the Bakumatsu. Actually, we've been waiting for a meaningful and insightful post from you for some time now. The point is, for someone who reads a lot, you're stingy when it comes to providing the beef! Laughing

Let's see if you can really cook. So how about serving up a nice big juicy Bakumatsu burger? We'll let you know if it is tasty or rubbish. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Uh oh Tornadoes, you've been asked to cook burgers for the Iron Chef of Bakumatsu. Nervous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
leakbrewergator wrote:
Uh oh Tornadoes, you've been asked to cook burgers for the Iron Chef of Bakumatsu. Nervous


I think you mean "Baka-matsu".
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
leakbrewergator wrote:
Uh oh Tornadoes, you've been asked to cook burgers for the Iron Chef of Bakumatsu. Nervous


I think you mean "Baka-matsu".


Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And where did Tornadoes go? I hope he hasn't fled. I bet he's busy looking through his recipe books! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not listening!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes,
Sounds like you are having trouble figuring out how to cook that burger. Maybe you can get Dash to provide you with some Ryoma-flavored Hamburger Helper "dashi" to mix into the beef. Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Maybe you can get Dash to provide you with some Ryoma-flavored Hamburger Helper "dashi" to mix into the beef


Wait wait hold the phone... There's Ryoma-flavored hamburger helper? Laughing Laughing Very Happy

Shucks, no luck! OH I did find THIS! Saba! (Oh I looove Saba!)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Owarikenshi wrote:


The book draws a very clear picture of just how closely Bakumatsu Japan resembled a hive of hornets someone (Perry) whacked with a baseball bat. Most importantly, it sets the stage and the script for the events that played out among the more well-known figures of history. Drama aplenty, but he makes you work for it.

Owari


This morning, my husband was lining out the drama that played out regularly in the mid- and higher reaches of the administration in the Tennessee collegiate system; the more he went on about it, the more they began to resemble Totman's portrait of failed reforms, infighting, duplicated, useless effort and stagnation. His own department head was required to submit two "reforms" --redesigned remedial courses, one after the other--only to have a completely new one foisted on her by the higher-ups. The head of the mathematics department is continually submitting his resignation and having it rejected, much like poor ol' Yoshinobu. No one is as forward as Shungaku at the podunk college, so no one has had to retire and flee in disgrace after failed reforms, but somehow the whole scenario reminds me of the inevitable decay of a complex bureaucracy.

I'm not through the book yet, but I've gotten to the "Kanto Rebellion" section, which I'm savoring a bit, since I tend to be fascinated by the massive Mito microcosmic madness represented by the Tengu-to rebellion (perhaps some readers of my fiction have noticed this...).

The one thing that really struck me about Totman's narrative of the Bunkyu reforms was perhaps that Shungaku and his compatriots did not take into account the possibility that the relaxing of sankin-kotai strictures without some kind of enforceable alternative would eviscerate the basis of Tokugawa authority. Perhaps I just don't understand why Shungaku thought that all those outside lords, who were making waves already, would continue to work with him to implement his reforms when their Edo tethers had been cut (well, loosened, I suppose). I do look forward to finishing this book, which, although it is slow going, is perfect bedside fodder.

Now I wonder...should I also get Beasley's book to supplement it, or is it pretty much gonna cover the same ground?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
After reading Beasley's book I agree with Obenjo. Beasley's book is a very thorough account of the period and I recommend you read it. I don't recall why Shungaku and others did not think ending sankin kotai would be a mistake but the fact that the Tokugawa attempted to reinstate sankin kotai later means they realized their mistake. But the way things were moving, even had sankin kotai not been stopped, I think various clans would have begun to ignore it eventually.
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