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Reading Sexegenary Years

 
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lordameth
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reading Sexegenary Years Reply with quote
This is perhaps a pretty small and obscure question, perhaps something I should have asked Bethetsu (or someone) privately. But, just in case it should happen to spur a longer discussion, I thought I'd ask it more publicly.

The question is simply this:

I've come across an article titled 「天保三辰年の琉球来聘と滝沢馬琴」。

How is this year pronounced (read)? Is it Tenpô sanshin nen? Or Tenpô san-tatsu nen?

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsu is the proper way to say the Junishi Dragon. The 3rd year of Tenpo 1832 is actually Mizunoe-Tatsu in the Jikkan/Junishi system
壬辰 John
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Reading Sexegenary Years Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
I've come across an article titled 「天保三辰年の琉球来聘と滝沢馬琴」。
How is this year pronounced (read)? Is it Tenpô sanshin nen? Or Tenpô san-tatsu nen?Thanks!

Probably Tenpô san, tatsu-doshi. "Tatsu-doshi" can stand by itself, so that is where the break is.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You got me there Bethetsu. I know 年 nen can have the nanori 'toshi' or 'ne' and does appear from tim e to time 年寄り染みた toshiyorijimita, but, I found 'nen' ubiquitous in date related words like 年号 nengo, 年賀葉書 nenganahaki, 年がら年中 nengaranenju. Anyhow, not to argue the point, when dating a year I think 'nen' is more correct. Yes? John
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
You got me there Bethetsu. I know 年 nen can have the nanori 'toshi' or 'ne' and does appear from tim e to time 年寄り染みた toshiyorijimita, but, I found 'nen' ubiquitous in date related words like 年号 nengo, 年賀葉書 nenganahaki, 年がら年中 nengaranenju. Anyhow, not to argue the point, when dating a year I think 'nen' is more correct. Yes? John


You're missing the point. It's not dating a year, it's describing what year in the 12 zodiac sign cycle that particular year is. If you isolate it, it's 辰年 たつどし as in Year of the Dragon. The full thing is Tenpou 3, Year of the Dragon. Had the author not added that it was Year of the Dragon, it would be "nen" as you'd have 天保三年. However, zodiac years are always read "doshi".
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah, I see. Isolated 'tatsudoshi' indeed. Context, context!!! Thanks for explaining that Domer. I guess that quarter acre Mr. Hawley mentioned kicked in there and blinded me to usage outside of dating nihonto. John
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah, that makes sense. I'm so used to seeing 'nen' used in reading years, I didn't think that 'toshi' should be used, to go with the kun-yomi of tatsu.

Thanks so much!!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wondering if the next question would be how to read the full cyclic year followed by 年 (before the 18th century the 年 tends to precede the cyclic year), I went to the Diet Library catalog, did two searches and got VERY interesting results. Readings like "tsuchinoe-tatsu doshi" seems standard, but it is not the only one. If I checked more items, there might have been more results. Of course, you have to wonder where the librarians got the readings, but still it is a variety, especially in the first example.

従文久三癸亥年十月至元治元甲子年四月
ジュウ ブンキュウ サン キガイ ノ トシ ジュウガツ シ ゲンジ ガン キノエネ ノ トシ シガツ
jû bunkyû san ki-gai no toshi jûgatsu shi
genji gan kinoe-ne no toshi shigatsu

享保九(甲辰)年
キョウホウ ク カノエタツドシ
Kyôhô ku kanoe-tatsu doshi

慶応三丁卯年慶応四戊辰年正月
ケイオウ サン ヒノトウドシ ケイオウ シ ツチノエタツドシ ショウガツ
Keiô san hinoto-u doshi Keiô shi tsuchinoe-tatsu doshi shôgatu

大正五丙辰年中華便覽
タイショウ 5 ヘイシンネン チュウカ ベンラン
Taishô 5 hei-shin nen

(Perhaps this thread really belongs in the Japanese language section.)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A wise choice. Thanks for moving it.
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