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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Translation assistance: Shinchokoki Reply with quote
Working through the description of Nagashino last night, a couple of translation questions came up. This is from the 現代語 translation. Assistance appreciated!

1. 志多羅(したら)の郷は地形が一段窪んだ所がある。

"The terrain of Shitara is a place with a step down depression" (?) was the best I could parcel out late last night. thoughts?

2. 徳川家康がころみつ坂の上、高松山に陣を布いた

Any ideas about the two underlined words? The second has the furigana for 布 as "し" next to it, which wasn't in the dictionary at all like that.

3. 鳶の巣山 is used throughout instead of 鳶ヶ巣山. Anyone know what's up with that?

4. 長篠の岸を乗本川が鳶の巣山の裾に流れている。

The particles are really throwing me off here, particularly the "wo....ga". "The riverbank of Nagashino, the Norimotogawa, flows past the skirt of Tobinosuyama." is the best I can come up with.

5. 検使: Can't find in my Casio--any ideas? Best I can puzzle out is some sort of "inspector". It's used to refer to Kanemori Nagachika and the others of the Go-Umamawarishuu that Nobunaga assigns to go with Sakai Tadatsugu on the Tobinosuyama (Tobigasuyama) raid.

Thanks...more questions soon, I would imagine.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Translation assistance: Shinchokoki Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
1. 志多羅(したら)の郷は地形が一段窪んだ所がある。


Just to churn out another option and add to the brain juices: "There is a place in Shitara where the lay of the land is sunken down a step."

Quote:
2. 徳川家康がころみつ坂の上、高松山に陣を布いた


According to
http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~inou/newpage281.htm
ころみつ坂 and 高松山 are both place names that no longer exist. I only did a cursory search, but I'm sure there are some more detailed commentaries.

布(し)く is an alternate way to write 敷く, just meaning 陣取る, or to place one's troops.

Quote:
4. 長篠の岸を乗本川が鳶の巣山の裾に流れている。

"The Norimotogawa runs along the Nagashino bank and toward the foot of Tobinosuyama."
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. Got it, thanks. That makes sense. Midnight after a day of work is a bad time to try to make sense of things.

2. Okay, makes sense. I was assuming it was some sort of adjective, since it was in front in kana. Most of the place names, the translator notes at the end of the chapter if they've changed (Takamatsuyama is currently XXcho, Aichi-ken, etc.). Didn't have one for this I don't think.

3. Works for me, I think. It's explanatory enough--I think the particles still confuse me, but I'm only looking to clarify understanding, not make a perfect translation. Rock on.

The more I delve into this, the more this is going to end up being a book, and not just a magazine article that I was aiming for.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hear you -- your brain does funny things at the end of the day. Hell, I'm high on coffee right now Just Kidding

Looks like you're reading some real fun stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
I hear you -- your brain does funny things at the end of the day. Hell, I'm high on coffee right now Just Kidding

Looks like you're reading some real fun stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going!


This is just tip of the iceberg--just the basics from Shinchokoki. I figure if I'm going to write about Nagashino, I should at least be reading the source material (granted, it's 現代語, but you get the point).

My original paper I did years ago was 5 pages, using an outline from the US Army staff college that was 4 pages long itself. As can only be expected, the paper was horrible. You simply can't put one line on each topic I was required to address and have any sense of coherency, yet I was pretty much ordered to keep it to 5 pages. Lunacy.

My immediate goal right now is to do something better than that (really, anything would be) and meet the 10 page requirement for a writing sample for UH grad school. I'm quickly realizing, though, that I could dash off 10 pages about Nagashino off the top of my head. If I truly follow the outline I'm working with, I've got chapters, not paragraphs. What I may end up doing is simply taking one of those sections, fleshing it out, and turning it in--I'm sure I could do 10 pages on the topography alone. Order of battle, reasons for conflict, etc. could probably be books in and of themselves, if I wanted them to be.

I suppose I may end up just doing this on my own for giggles, turning in a section as my writing sample. To properly do this the way I envision, it's going to take longer than the month I'm giving myself (especially while deployed).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Translation assistance: Shinchokoki Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

1. 志多羅(したら)の郷は地形が一段窪んだ所がある。
Ichi-dan can mean "(even more) considerable," so "its terrain has a place with a considerable depression."

2. 徳川家康がころみつ坂の上、高松山に陣を布いた
The tsu in Koromi-tsu-zaka is probably an old genitive.

5. 検使: けん‐し【検使】
#事実を見届けるために派遣する使。
#殺傷・変死などの検視をする役人。
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: Translation assistance: Shinchokoki Reply with quote
Right On あああさあ~す!
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got nothin' for Koromitsuzaka, but could Takamatsu-yama be this Hyôgo-ken location:?

兵庫県:西脇市 > 高松山

[現]西脇市高松町(たかまつちよう)

野(の)村の南に位置し、加古川中流域東岸の段丘上にある。東は金城(かなしろ)山、南は加東(かとう)郡曾我(そが)村(現滝野町)。慶長国絵図に高松山とみえ、正保郷帳以下の郷帳類にも一村として登載されているが、村は付されていない。高松山は当地にある高野山真言宗長明(ちようめい)寺の山号。江戸期の領主の変遷は和布(わぶ)新田村に同じ。正保郷帳によると田方八九石余・畑方二〇石余。延宝五年(一六七七)の検地帳(長明寺文書)では高一六三石余・反別二一町余、小物成は山手銀三〇匁。高持は二院(宝光院・宝仙院)・二一坊・二僧。院・坊の抱百姓六、板波(いたば)村からの入作百姓一。天保郷帳では高二〇〇石余。明治四年(一八七一)の戸数二八(「村々高并戸数控帳」宮崎家文書)。八幡神社がある。

According to the wonderful Rekishi Chimei Taikei, there was a Takamatsu-san which is now Takamatsu-chô, in Nishiwaki-shi.

I apologize to be lazy and not translate the rest, but it's 2am, and I am going to sleep now.
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
I got nothin' for Koromitsuzaka, but could Takamatsu-yama be this Hyôgo-ken location:?


Not when I'm discussing a battle that took place in Aichi, no. Laughing

I'm not looking for help with the location names, I simply didn't know that it was a location. "Takamatsuyama" wasn't part of my problem at all.
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Shinchokoki gets easier as you go, it's a lot of the same stuff. I translated about 5 battles, and by the time I got to the 5th, I already had all the vocabulary I needed. I was going chronologically, so I never got to Nagashino though.
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
攻め掛からせて

Should be too easy, but the passive is screwing with me, and it's been a long day. Full sentence is:

鉄砲千挺ほどを選抜し、佐々成政、前田利家、野々原正成、福富秀勝、塙直正を指揮者とし、次いで、敵陣近くまで足軽隊を攻め掛からせて敵方を挑発した。
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Not when I'm discussing a battle that took place in Aichi, no. Laughing


Oh, sorry. Must have missed that Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
鉄砲千挺ほどを選抜し、佐々成政、前田利家、野々原正成、福富秀勝、塙直正を指揮者とし、次いで、敵陣近くまで足軽隊を攻め掛からせて敵方を挑発した。


Rethink the sentence with this in mind: 攻めかかる is causative, so the subject of the sentence is sending the ashigaru-tai to attack the enemy camp.
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
鉄砲千挺ほどを選抜し、佐々成政、前田利家、野々原正成、福富秀勝、塙直正を指揮者とし、次いで、敵陣近くまで足軽隊を攻め掛からせて敵方を挑発した。


Rethink the sentence with this in mind: 攻めかかる is causative, so the subject of the sentence is sending the ashigaru-tai to attack the enemy camp.


(Nobunaga), selecting around 1000 arquebusiers, put Sassa (and the others...) in command and then sent them close to the enemy to disrupt them.

Close?
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Next:

岩村の城は、秋山信友・大島某・座光寺為清を大将して甲斐・信濃の軍勢が立て籠もっている

1. That's a name, right? Z(a)*kouji Tamekiyo is how I read that.

2. Anyone have insight into what the second portion's idiom means? I'm assuming it's an idiom, as "having a standing basket" makes no sense to me in this case.
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Last edited by ltdomer98 on Sun May 02, 2010 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Isn't 座 Za? John
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Isn't 座 Za? John


yes, I wasn't paying attention--Z + Kouji = famous temple in Nagano, so that's what came out.

*fixed.
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Next:

岩村の城は、秋山信友・大島某・座光寺為清を大将して甲斐・信濃の軍勢が立て籠もっている
2. Anyone have insight into what the second portion's idiom means? I'm assuming it's an idiom, as "having a standing basket" makes no sense to me in this case.

立て籠る tatekomoru is to "hole up," especially when under attack in a castle or fortress. 籠城
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
立て籠る tatekomoru is to "hole up," especially when under attack in a castle or fortress. 籠城


bow
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
The Shinchokoki gets easier as you go, it's a lot of the same stuff. I translated about 5 battles, and by the time I got to the 5th, I already had all the vocabulary I needed. I was going chronologically, so I never got to Nagashino though.


I'm noticing this. I struggled a bit through the actual battle, partially because compared to other chapters it's so long and detailed. Today while waiting for a flight I knocked out 3 siege descriptions (Takatenjin, Akechi, and Iwamura) in an hour flat. MUCH easier, because it's all the same description. Thank goodness Ota Gyuuichi wasn't all that imaginative in his prose! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
十一月十四日戌の刻に京都を出発して急行、翌十五日、岐阜に帰城した。

去る十日の夜、岩村城を攻めている織田軍勢が陣取る水精山へ、敵が出撃して夜討ちをかけて来た。

Okay--just confirming because the events aren't written in order here. In the first sentence, Nobunaga departs Kyoto on the 14th hurriedly and arrives the next day in Gifu, got that. The problem is the next sentence, underlined part--"The night of the previous 10th" is how I read that--meaning 4/5 days prior to the previous sentence. Is that what it's saying? I just want to confirm, because order of events is important. The chapter starts off with just a "at around that time" (この頃), and the previous chapter portions I have doesn't have an exact date listed. I just want to confirm that the night attack happened 4 days prior to Nobunaga leaving Kyoto.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another one.

岩村城に立て籠もり、織田勢が包囲のために設けた柵を破壊して夜討ちに出撃した軍勢に、武田勝頼は合流しようとしたのである。

Is the subject the (Takeda) force inside Iwamura-jo, or is it Takeda Katsuyori?

I read this as:

Takeda Katsuyori intended the force trapped inside Iwamura-jo to join up with the night attack force, after the siege barriers the Oda erected had been destroyed.

戌の刻 = 午後八時前後

Before and after 8 PM? Does that mean that the hour of the dog was the 2 hours around 8 PM, ie. 7-9 PM? That's a painful way to describe it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
岩村城に立て籠もり、織田勢が包囲のために設けた柵を破壊して夜討ちに出撃した軍勢に、武田勝頼は合流しようとしたのである。


The subject of 合流しようとした is Takeda Katsuyori.

[Takeda Katsuyori] is attempting to join up with the [force that had been holed-up within Iwakura-jo, but had broken through the fencing set up by the Oda troops laying siege to the castle and embarked on a night attack].


Last edited by nagaeyari on Tue May 04, 2010 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
十一月十四日戌の刻に京都を出発して急行、翌十五日、岐阜に帰城した。

去る十日の夜、岩村城を攻めている織田軍勢が陣取る水精山へ、敵が出撃して夜討ちをかけて来た。


Yea, that's basically what it is saying. 

過ぎ去った10日の夜(遡っての話)
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
戌の刻 = 午後八時前後
Before and after 8 PM? Does that mean that the hour of the dog was the 2 hours around 8 PM, ie. 7-9 PM? That's a painful way to describe it.
I am not sure what you meant by "painful," but you could describe it as "he left between seven and nine in the evening," (though as it was just after the winter solstice the night hours were longer that the day hours, so it was somewhat earlier).
Perhaps they waited for the (nearly) full moon to rise high enough.

(edit)
Perhaps I misunderstood. Are you saying that 戌の刻 = 午後八時前後 is a poor explanation? It may not be as bad as you think. "Hour of the Dog" etc. can also refer to the central moment in the toki, the moment when the bell is struck for that toki. In fact, that is the first meaning given in the Kojien. In this case 午後八時前後 might not mean "from 7pm to 9pm," but rather "the moment around 8 pm, depending on the season." The explanation probably assumes a general knowledge of how the toki worked.


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