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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

Good deal. I just started my 19th year, just long enough to know that I do not know enough. I have studied (in order time invested):

Japanese jujutsu (Mizu Ryu)
Filipino hand, knife, and stick fighting (Inayan Kadena de Mano with some Sinawali and Dequerdas)
Iaidou (Muso Shinden Ryuu )
Kendou

I have, unfortunatly, moved away from my jujutsu, kadena de mano, and iaidou schools, though I still teach the first two whenever I get the chance.
It is a pleasure to meet someone who has a varied, and open, background and outlook.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Hometutor,

It is a pleasure to meet someone who has a varied, and open, background and outlook.


Peace,

Matt


The pleasure is mine sir

Rick
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
Metsuke wrote:
More specifically, the show Fight Science. Well, its a 2 hour show about how martial arts are broken down with science and numbers, like how much pounds a punch puts out or how fast a kick strikes. They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks. Then, towards the end of the unarmed section, they mention an Ultimate warrior. At this point, Im growing fearful, since its been pretty good so far about being mythical. Well, turns out our Ultimate warrior is none other then the dreaded Ninjer. Yep. They say how they were formed about 600 AD and did the dirty work that the honorable samurai refused to do. They had a modern day ninjer even come out and show his badassitude by walking around on "Plum Blossoms" which are these poles designed to enhance your balance and he actually scaled them quite well. In a few more minutes, they talked about how Ultimate he was to other arts by showing (what Im assuming were) choreographed sparring segements. IT ended up the segment with him showing a brutal technique that actually hit hard. Nearly enough to kill a person. Watch for it, and you will see. Also, Katana is the greatest weapon on the show appearently. The guy who demonstrated it was an Austrailian Tae Kwon Do expert. Go figure...


I appriciate the use of the word "ninjer". I seriously have not seen that in a long time. It certainly brought a Very Happy to my face.




God, I hate ninja's....
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
Kane Hosokawa wrote:

God, I hate Ninja's....


I feel like Indiana Jones every time one of them Ninjer show up, "Ninja... Why did it have to be Ninja?"
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Kane Hosokawa wrote:

God, I hate Ninja's....


I feel like Indiana Jones every time one of them Ninjer show up, "Ninja... Why did it have to be Ninja?"


Whenever I see a ninjer, I feel like Anakin Skywalker in Episode 3, when he kills all the little kids.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ok im just typing "out loud" if you will but say if you give some boxer a sword and tell him to cut a tamishigiri mat he probalby wont be able to do it but if you gave sensei kuroda a sword and told him to do it he could its all in the training and technique Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hidatade,

BIG difference. Smile Blunt force striking trauma is drastically different from cutting trauma.


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Matt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr iaidoka

i said that because a trained warrior in the arts has a better chance of winning a fight than a boxer who came from brooklyn( no offense to boxers or bronx) its unpardonable to expect a martial artist to hit as "hard" as a boxer but you can expect them to do more damage and consistancy than the boxer ( i do not mean any of this rudely putting emotion on the comp. and oppinion is hard if you cant see someones face ) please forgive me for any missconseptions Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hidatade,

No problem, man, discussing things online gets tricky, even with emoticons. On a straight up, hands only, fight I would be hard pressed to bet on whether the boxer or the martial artist would prevail since boxing is a very effecting art in its own right. If anything other than hands come into play then the advantage definitely goes to the "typical" martial artist. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hidatade wrote:
msr iaidoka

i said that because a trained warrior in the arts has a better chance of winning a fight than a boxer who came from brooklyn( no offense to boxers or bronx) its unpardonable to expect a martial artist to hit as "hard" as a boxer but you can expect them to do more damage and consistancy than the boxer ( i do not mean any of this rudely putting emotion on the comp. and oppinion is hard if you cant see someones face ) please forgive me for any missconseptions Rolling Eyes


I heartily disagree - a martial artist fighting a boxer will have to take three punches for every one they throw - they'd be much better off breaking something than trying to hit a boxer. The whole point of boxing is to take hard, damaging punches. You can punch a boxer square in the face with your bare hands and be lucky if they even flinch, and a punch to the stomach or solar plexus won't even phase them. Ever seen a boxer training with a medicine ball? They lie on the ground and someone stands over them with the 30 pound ball and throws it on thier midsection over and over again. A boxer will hit and hit while you hit them - they are trained to get hit- something that many (or most) "traditional" martial arts don't even include - even if a person can take a punch, if they get hit in the face they will hesitate for a second if it isn't enough to knock them down - a boxer will hit you 4 times while you are psychologically stunned even if it didnt cause any real damage - a trained boxer won't have that hesitation, it takes real damage to phase them, they are trained out of the psychological reactions. In my experience in the martial arts any trained martial artist can ignore strikes to the stomach, but not the face, however martial arts focuses on blocking, so there will be that blocking instinct, which boxers dont' necessarily have, so while you are trying to blox they just bulldoze you until they do enough damage to knock you down.

These are two different philosophies - boxing is "cause more damage and faster than your opponent even while they hit you", whereas martial arts training is "block and counterattack - don't get hit". I've seen trained martial artists lose barfights because they have this expectation that one rock solid punch or kick will drop someone - for someone who is trained to take bad damaging strikes, they take that one big slam the martial artist deals out, and keep hitting. Unless the martial artist has trained to fight, not just spar, they lose the psychological fight right there, and get beat down. You better just break a knee.

I think the moderator of this forum would agree with me - only people who have never been in a fight, or who are all talk and don't really know how to fight will really go down with a single strike - and martial artists not trained to keep fighting until the person is literally on the ground will lose. In highschool I learned this first hand, someone attacked me, and I nailed him just below the knee, and being a newbie martial artist of two years or so expected that to end it - I got in a fight a few months before and dropped a guy with a single punch, so I must have bought into that "one punch" marital arts mentality. It didn't work this time, I think all I did was give him a sore knee for a week or two, and I lost the fight right there psychologically - until he grabbed me and pulled me down, and I had a clear enough head to forget all of my martial arts training and grab a loose chunk of concrete smack him in the face, which stopped him long enough for someone to pull him off me - but I'm sure if no one was around and he wanted to beat the crap out of me, he would have succeeded. As far as I know, the concrete didn't hurt him, it just made him pause. I was lucky he was a wrestler, and his wrestling training probably hindered him as much as my expectancy of dropping someone with one kick did me - he wasn't trained to break anything, just get the "pin". Sort of an unpleasant and enlightening experience.


Last edited by kitsuno on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

You have an excellent point there, one that I had not thought of. Granted, some Kempo styles (and ones like them) do condition their bodies for punishment, but the basic idea of "evasion is so much better" does still stand. Boxers do learn to slip punches, but those are just head shots. I have yet to see a boxer really try to dodge a body shot.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
kitsuno,

You have an excellent point there, one that I had not thought of. Granted, some Kempo styles (and ones like them) do condition their bodies for punishment, but the basic idea of "evasion is so much better" does still stand. Boxers do learn to slip punches, but those are just head shots. I have yet to see a boxer really try to dodge a body shot.


Well, in boxing the entire purpose is to continue to cause as much damage as humanly possible until the damage ends the fight, and to be able to take more damage than the person you are fighting.

The martial arts purpose (as it is trained in a dojo) is to not get hit, and to immobilize the person you are fighting with a good strike followed by some sort of lock or combination. Boxers have the further advantage that the training and boxing causes similar damage to what you would sustain in a fight, so they learn what thier body can take, they learn what does real damage, and what doesn't to thier own body. Martial artists don't tend to ever get this sort of experience, so if a martial artist gets punched with full force in the face, they don't have the experience to know that it isn't severe damage, and they lose psychologically right there. A boxer ignores it because they have been hit before, and know what to expect and what they can take. I'm generalizing, but by "martial artist", I mean someone who has trained in a regular martial arts studio, not someone who has supplemented it with boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, etc. - which is why I think weight training is of utmost importance for a martial artist. Being able to cause damage is as important as being fast.

As always, Mark Twain said it best:

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Some schools do train for what my usual gang calls "situational reality." We regularly get the hell kicked out of us as part of the training routine. Feels good in a bruised and bloody sort of way. Smile I love the Mark Twain quote, by the way. It is something that I have always understood but I never knew that Twain had made the observation. Got to love that crazy old man.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
Metsuke wrote:
More specifically, the show Fight Science. Well, its a 2 hour show about how martial arts are broken down with science and numbers, like how much pounds a punch puts out or how fast a kick strikes. They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks. Then, towards the end of the unarmed section, they mention an Ultimate warrior. At this point, Im growing fearful, since its been pretty good so far about being mythical. Well, turns out our Ultimate warrior is none other then the dreaded Ninjer. Yep. They say how they were formed about 600 AD and did the dirty work that the honorable samurai refused to do. They had a modern day ninjer even come out and show his badassitude by walking around on "Plum Blossoms" which are these poles designed to enhance your balance and he actually scaled them quite well. In a few more minutes, they talked about how Ultimate he was to other arts by showing (what Im assuming were) choreographed sparring segements. IT ended up the segment with him showing a brutal technique that actually hit hard. Nearly enough to kill a person. Watch for it, and you will see. Also, Katana is the greatest weapon on the show appearently. The guy who demonstrated it was an Austrailian Tae Kwon Do expert. Go figure...



I was reading some info on another forum by one of the guys who was in the show doing swordwork. He said they refused to do tameshigeri part because of the way it was to be presented.So thet got the TKD guy to do it.He knew nothing about swordsmanship
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
hidatade wrote:
msr iaidoka

i said that because a trained warrior in the arts has a better chance of winning a fight than a boxer who came from brooklyn( no offense to boxers or bronx) its unpardonable to expect a martial artist to hit as "hard" as a boxer but you can expect them to do more damage and consistancy than the boxer ( i do not mean any of this rudely putting emotion on the comp. and oppinion is hard if you cant see someones face ) please forgive me for any missconseptions Rolling Eyes


I heartily disagree - a martial artist fighting a boxer will have to take three punches for every one they throw - they'd be much better off breaking something than trying to hit a boxer. The whole point of boxing is to take hard, damaging punches. You can punch a boxer square in the face with your bare hands and be lucky if they even flinch, and a punch to the stomach or solar plexus won't even phase them. Ever seen a boxer training with a medicine ball? They lie on the ground and someone stands over them with the 30 pound ball and throws it on thier midsection over and over again. A boxer will hit and hit while you hit them - they are trained to get hit- something that many (or most) "traditional" martial arts don't even include - even if a person can take a punch, if they get hit in the face they will hesitate for a second if it isn't enough to knock them down - a boxer will hit you 4 times while you are psychologically stunned even if it didnt cause any real damage - a trained boxer won't have that hesitation, it takes real damage to phase them, they are trained out of the psychological reactions. In my experience in the martial arts any trained martial artist can ignore strikes to the stomach, but not the face, however martial arts focuses on blocking, so there will be that blocking instinct, which boxers dont' necessarily have, so while you are trying to blox they just bulldoze you until they do enough damage to knock you down.

These are two different philosophies - boxing is "cause more damage and faster than your opponent even while they hit you", whereas martial arts training is "block and counterattack - don't get hit". I've seen trained martial artists lose barfights because they have this expectation that one rock solid punch or kick will drop someone - for someone who is trained to take bad damaging strikes, they take that one big slam the martial artist deals out, and keep hitting. Unless the martial artist has trained to fight, not just spar, they lose the psychological fight right there, and get beat down. You better just break a knee.

I think the moderator of this forum would agree with me - only people who have never been in a fight, or who are all talk and don't really know how to fight will really go down with a single strike - and martial artists not trained to keep fighting until the person is literally on the ground will lose. In highschool I learned this first hand, someone attacked me, and I nailed him just below the knee, and being a newbie martial artist of two years or so expected that to end it - I got in a fight a few months before and dropped a guy with a single punch, so I must have bought into that "one punch" marital arts mentality. It didn't work this time, I think all I did was give him a sore knee for a week or two, and I lost the fight right there psychologically - until he grabbed me and pulled me down, and I had a clear enough head to forget all of my martial arts training and grab a loose chunk of concrete smack him in the face, which stopped him long enough for someone to pull him off me - but I'm sure if no one was around and he wanted to beat the crap out of me, he would have succeeded. As far as I know, the concrete didn't hurt him, it just made him pause. I was lucky he was a wrestler, and his wrestling training probably hindered him as much as my expectancy of dropping someone with one kick did me - he wasn't trained to break anything, just get the "pin". Sort of an unpleasant and enlightening experience.


Well Said!!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I figured as much. The TKD guy just hacked away. It wasnt pretty at all. Did alot of damage to the gel but uh... not very graceful.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bladeswinger & Metsuke,

Why is it that just about every Tae Kwon Do guy who gets his hands on a katana automatically thinks they know what they are doing?
I had one Tae Kown Do/Tang Soo Do guy training with me in the Filipino knife fighting course I took. I brought my Iaidou gear one day to get some practice in before class and he asked if he could see my iaitou. He then proceeded to give me cancer by swinging it around in Haidong Gumdo fashion. I did not have the time to correct him for his insult before class started.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
He then proceeded to give me cancer by swinging it around in Haidong Gumdo fashion.


What a nasty guy.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku,

I agree. I did not have any immediate reaction other than to stare in wide-eyed amazement.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Metsuke wrote:
They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks.


I can't take it

No "style" has "stronger" punches or kicks. It has to do with body type, weight, strength, and technique to a lesser degree. There is no WAY you can correlate the power of a punch to a style, except maybe at the most fundamental level - a boxer's cross might add a slightly measurable percent of power when measured against the "snap" of a karate punch, for example, but the effect is different - a boxer's puch knocks you on your ass, but a karate punch might break something without knocking you down.

I have a feeling the scientific method was ignored for this. It would make for a fascinating study if all variables were properly controlled, but like most TV shows that try to show something, all it does is hurt my head. Variables are never controlled properly - there are a heck of a lot of things to take into account to compare the power of punches. I used to hit those measuring bags at martial arts tournaments, and size has a lot to do with the measurement. I could devise an outline of an effective experiment right here, but this post would go on for another three pages, so I'll just leave it at that - but it is important to mention that it is very likely that all it would do is show if there is ANY correlation between style and power, not "which" style packs more power.


Case 1:

I was training in Aikido and got punched in the nose by a 160 lbs person, phases you but did not do much.

I punched roughly the same way by another guy who was almost 230 lbs (about 6'3) knocked me clean on my back. Both Aikidoka....so go figure.

Maikeru
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart,

Practicing the Okinawan Face Block?


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hidatade wrote:
msr iaidoka

i said that because a trained warrior in the arts has a better chance of winning a fight than a boxer who came from brooklyn( no offense to boxers or bronx) its unpardonable to expect a martial artist to hit as "hard" as a boxer but you can expect them to do more damage and consistancy than the boxer ( i do not mean any of this rudely putting emotion on the comp. and oppinion is hard if you cant see someones face ) please forgive me for any missconseptions Rolling Eyes


All depends on the martial artist's training

Punching and kicking in front of a mirror and doing forms is a far cry from training to take a punch and punch a man full contact

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
kitsuno,

You have an excellent point there, one that I had not thought of. Granted, some Kempo styles (and ones like them) do condition their bodies for punishment, but the basic idea of "evasion is so much better" does still stand. Boxers do learn to slip punches, but those are just head shots. I have yet to see a boxer really try to dodge a body shot.


Peace,

Matt


That's why I used to keep my elbows in close to my body my friend

rick
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

Not a bad habit to have. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
maikeruart,

Practicing the Okinawan Face Block?


Peace,

Matt


"Now try my nuts to your fist style... howd you like it. I am bleeding making me the victor."

Maikeru
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