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So I was watching the National Geographic Channel...
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Metsuke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
More specifically, the show Fight Science. Well, its a 2 hour show about how martial arts are broken down with science and numbers, like how much pounds a punch puts out or how fast a kick strikes. They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks. Then, towards the end of the unarmed section, they mention an Ultimate warrior. At this point, Im growing fearful, since its been pretty good so far about being mythical. Well, turns out our Ultimate warrior is none other then the dreaded Ninjer. Yep. They say how they were formed about 600 AD and did the dirty work that the honorable samurai refused to do. They had a modern day ninjer even come out and show his badassitude by walking around on "Plum Blossoms" which are these poles designed to enhance your balance and he actually scaled them quite well. In a few more minutes, they talked about how Ultimate he was to other arts by showing (what Im assuming were) choreographed sparring segements. IT ended up the segment with him showing a brutal technique that actually hit hard. Nearly enough to kill a person. Watch for it, and you will see. Also, Katana is the greatest weapon on the show appearently. The guy who demonstrated it was an Austrailian Tae Kwon Do expert. Go figure...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Metsuke,

I think you just gave me the biggest reasons to avoid the show. Damn, I was actually looking forward to it. They had a show similar to it on the Discovery Channel a few years ago and managed to screw it up with bad practicioners and cheesy choreography. The science may be valid, but the illustrations need to be at least passable. I had hoped that this one would be better.
I saw a video of a guy doing a Japanese sword demonstration and one of the big name martial arts competitions. He managed to include every possible sin; spinning around, swinging the sword like a Wushu guy, throwing the sword up in the air, wearing ridiculous clothes, et cetera. Ah well, another golden opportunity squandered.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep, I've seen that one too. They got the science down, its just that... they didnt research the history very well. @_@
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi all,

I think I saw that first program too.
During the sword demo did the guy do a backflip?

Puts all the other programs they do in doubt for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Metsuke,

I think you just gave me the biggest reasons to avoid the show.
Matt


Don't let that stop you if it's ever rerun 99% fof the show was real good and it was nice seeing some data backing up theories

Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
Metsuke wrote:
They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks.


I can't take it

No "style" has "stronger" punches or kicks. It has to do with body type, weight, strength, and technique to a lesser degree. There is no WAY you can correlate the power of a punch to a style, except maybe at the most fundamental level - a boxer's cross might add a slightly measurable percent of power when measured against the "snap" of a karate punch, for example, but the effect is different - a boxer's puch knocks you on your ass, but a karate punch might break something without knocking you down.

I have a feeling the scientific method was ignored for this. It would make for a fascinating study if all variables were properly controlled, but like most TV shows that try to show something, all it does is hurt my head. Variables are never controlled properly - there are a heck of a lot of things to take into account to compare the power of punches. I used to hit those measuring bags at martial arts tournaments, and size has a lot to do with the measurement. I could devise an outline of an effective experiment right here, but this post would go on for another three pages, so I'll just leave it at that - but it is important to mention that it is very likely that all it would do is show if there is ANY correlation between style and power, not "which" style packs more power.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Metsuke wrote:
They were getting on with which styles had the hardest punches and kicks.


I can't take it

No "style" has "stronger" punches or kicks. It has to do with body type, weight, strength, and technique to a lesser degree. .


As long as those styles are following proper physiological principles

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: So I was watching the National Geographic Channel... Reply with quote
Hometutor wrote:


As long as those styles are following proper physiological principles


Which of course has as much or more to do with the effectiveness and knowledge of the teacher and the ability of the students as opposed to the "style" of martial art. But some are focused more on power, and others more on speed or multiple strikes. So the focus of the style will have a bearing on the force of a punch, but a 250 pound trained kung fu or aikido practicioner (we are assuming they are not simply morbidly obese) will still hit harder than a professional 120 pound boxer. (If I were going to devise an experiment, I'd be sure to take into account body fat percentage and tested muscle strength) - but I think it is safe to say that a 120 pound trained aikidoka will not hit as hard as a trained 120 pound boxer - the purpose is different. I still maintain that the specific style is only a small part of the end "power" result.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

I will keep an eye out for it, I just have to remember to turn it off when it gets to the end part. Smile Good to see you posting, I was beginning to wonder if you were a figment of kitsuno's imagination.


kitsuno,

Pure physical power does hold sawy in the equation, but technique is key. I have had the good fortunte to deal with three distinct empty hand styles during the course of my training and each one had a different technique for a punch. My fellow "veterans" in my home doujou have had most of the same training as I have had so I have felt each one of them hit me with the various techniques. The overall strength of these people did not change, but I swear that each punch felt noticably different. Depending on the grounding, angle of attack, and physics of the attack and well placed, technically perfect, punch will hit harder than a haymaker from Lou Ferigno in his prime.
Just observations from my experiences.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Depending on the grounding, angle of attack, and physics of the attack and well placed, technically perfect, punch will hit harder than a haymaker from Lou Ferigno in his prime.
Just observations from my experiences.


I'll believe it when I measure it - but technically I think it was which "style" has more power, not the level of technique of an individual. I'm sure technique has a big impact, like I said before - I just don't think any particular style can be tagged as "the most powerful" - it depends on the teacher, the student, and the skill of the student's technique. If I was to put together a complex experiment and it turns out that a 110 pound trained goju ryu karate expert can hit harder than Mike Tyson in his prime, I'd fully accept it. But I'd need to see the facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

The better experiment would be to take a large sample of equally sized people and educate them in various schools of thought for punching and kicking. This would take a while unless you can find a large enough sample base of pre-trained people.
Then it would be a matter of testing their punch and kick force on a psi-meter. Given those results then you can factor in the strength variable to determine the additions.
All in all, trying to find the strongest punch is foolish. Finding the most accurate punch is better. The strongest punch to the stomach is nothing compared to a perfect punch to the throat or the c4 vertebrae. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
The strongest punch to the stomach is nothing compared to a perfect punch to the throat or the c4 vertebrae. Smile




Try telling that to Houdini!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi,

Well put. Smile You are one of the few who has ever referenced the demise of Houdini and I applaud you for that. Clap clap
I am not even going to try to argue against that, the history dorkishness of it was too great. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
msr.iaidoka wrote:
The strongest punch to the stomach is nothing compared to a perfect punch to the throat or the c4 vertebrae. Smile




Try telling that to Houdini!


I want you to hit me... **WHACK** ...when I'm ready.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:

The better experiment would be to take...


I know exactly how I could do it to control for everything. It is just a fantasy experiment, because to do it right would be unmanageable. I haven't gone into any detail because I'd be spending at least 45 minutes writing about 4 solid pages, and I don't really feel like it Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:

Then it would be a matter of testing their punch and kick force on a psi-meter. Given those results then you can factor in the strength variable to determine the additions.


Although I'll put in my two cents and say that there is still a heck of a lot you have to control for aside from "equally sized people", including race, sex, past experience, body chemistry, bone density, muscle mass, and what they had for lunch, among a myriad of other things, which is why it would be pretty much unmanageable. But hey, if I could get a 10 million dollar research grant, I'd be all over it Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Agreed. Mayhaps we should write a proposal to Discovery and National Geographic.

Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
kitsuno,

Agreed. Mayhaps we should write a proposal to Discovery and National Geographic.


I'm sure it would give them a good laugh Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

It would be some of the garbage I have caught on there from time to time. Some of these shows amaze me that they every made it into greenlight stage. If I was in the kinesiology field I would have such a project as my thesis. Alas, I can not make it fit into a Public History thesis. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ther's a couple articles I wrote on power in here

http://kirkhamsebooks.com/MartialArts/MartialArtsArticles/

Rick
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

I shall have to check these out. I spend many hours explaining to my students that strength is not key to a powerful strike. Mayhaps I can steal something insightful from your writings. Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Hometutor,

I shall have to check these out. I spend many hours explaining to my students that strength is not key to a powerful strike. Mayhaps I can steal something insightful from your writings. Smile


Peace,

Matt


Only if there that insightful

Strength is a key though or actually mass which basically means gross motor coordination, nevermind I put it in the articles

Sorry

Rick
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

No problem, man. Smile I look forward to reading them. Until then, I am caught up in the entertainment going on in the "degenerate" thread under "Modern Japan."


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor,

Your articles are very well written, and very much to the point, something that is lacking in many instructors. You managed to reinforce my main point as well, that technique is primary. I do not doubt the necessity of strength, of course. Else I would not have spent as many years as I have in the gym...but I also know what it is like to get hit with a perfect technique from someone who is weaker. It hurts like hell...
May I ask what your background is? I almost want to guess that you have Eskrima/Arnis in there somewhere.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Hometutor,

Your articles are very well written, and very much to the point, something that is lacking in many instructors. You managed to reinforce my main point as well, that technique is primary. I do not doubt the necessity of strength, of course. Else I would not have spent as many years as I have in the gym...but I also know what it is like to get hit with a perfect technique from someone who is weaker. It hurts like hell...
May I ask what your background is? I almost want to guess that you have Eskrima/Arnis in there somewhere.


Peace,

Matt


Thank you you're very kind. Feel free to print them out and give them to your students.

My background is much like my ansestry so heinz 57 it's fuuny. It's probably about the same as most people who out lived the schools they wree training in or moved

Some hard style kung-fu from an ex close combat marine instructor

Some soft kung-fu from a friend

boxing

sho ba kahn

kemp ju jitsu from a crazy friend (when I was younger and crazy ie good workout if I got hurt)

exercise phys and kinese in college

behavior mod stuff along with teaching techniques

The martial arts background can't be much different than most who have trained for a while (okay 47 - 14 = 33 years now ouch) The education background really helped me to do good analysis of techniques and theories and REALLY break things down big time to almost a ridiculaous level

Guess that's about it

Rick
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