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A Possible Antidote to Kool Aid Discovered?

 
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Shisendo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: A Possible Antidote to Kool Aid Discovered? Reply with quote
Some of you are going to love this article. Even the title might be enough to make your day:

Idolizing Sakamoto Ryoma a sign of immaturity

Here's the link while it lasts:

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201011280124.html
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, that certainly made my day. Even though he makes a lot of good points, kind of harsh...in an amusing sort of way. I think "...I, too, do not think badly of him. There is no need to. All I want to say is I've had enough of others using Ryoma to suit themselves" applies to a lot of hero worshiping involving historical figures from Admiral Yi to Abe Lincoln to Musashi to...well, you get the idea.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Just the facts ma'am." He misses the whole point of populist entertainment. I do agree that sometimes fictitious embellishment can be harmful and used to create group sentiment. What is the counter? Education. Ryoma's story is entertaining though, as well as the others mentioned. Hero worship generally ignores the faults and over-emphasises the strengths. I like the report. John
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do like how the author criticizes the historical inaccuracies of Ryoma-den. Yes it is a drama so people should expect some stretching and twisting of the truth but I feel the Taiga goes too far in completely fabricating significant historical events and distorting Ryoma's reality. One example I like to bring up is from the previous Taiga, Tenchijin, in which the Uesugi were shown fighting in Korea when in fact the Uesugi were never ordered to Korea by Hideyoshi and never stepped foot in Korea.

I also like how the author points out how Ryoma's image has been and is today used to promote certain people or political ideas, even if it did not jive with the historical reality of Ryoma.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Glad you enjoyed the article. My favourite line was "Ryoma is the ultimate icon of youth." I just had a photoshopped image in my mind of Ryoma fronting The Who and singing "Hope I die before I get old . . ."
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shisendo, interesting article. Thanks for sharing it. I was personally quite annoyed by the inaccuracies in the Ryoma drama and all the Ryoma hero worship that goes on here in Japan.

Tornadoes28 wrote:
I do like how the author criticizes the historical inaccuracies of Ryoma-den. Yes it is a drama so people should expect some stretching and twisting of the truth but I feel the Taiga goes too far in completely fabricating significant historical events and distorting Ryoma's reality. One example I like to bring up is from the previous Taiga, Tenchijin, in which the Uesugi were shown fighting in Korea when in fact the Uesugi were never ordered to Korea by Hideyoshi and never stepped foot in Korea.
Seems to me that you've come a long way since you got hit over the head quite some time ago for believing what was being shown in that Naoe Kanetsugu drama about the Uesugi fighting in Korea. You write like you knew all that all along! Glad to see you jump on the wagon! Some of the more harsher people here would maybe call you a "tool" for this, but I won't. Very Happy Again, glad to see you jump on all the right bandwagons these days.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Date Onigiri wrote:
Shisendo, interesting article. Thanks for sharing it. I was personally quite annoyed by the inaccuracies in the Ryoma drama and all the Ryoma hero worship that goes on here in Japan.

Tornadoes28 wrote:
I do like how the author criticizes the historical inaccuracies of Ryoma-den. Yes it is a drama so people should expect some stretching and twisting of the truth but I feel the Taiga goes too far in completely fabricating significant historical events and distorting Ryoma's reality. One example I like to bring up is from the previous Taiga, Tenchijin, in which the Uesugi were shown fighting in Korea when in fact the Uesugi were never ordered to Korea by Hideyoshi and never stepped foot in Korea.
Seems to me that you've come a long way since you got hit over the head quite some time ago for believing what was being shown in that Naoe Kanetsugu drama about the Uesugi fighting in Korea. You write like you knew all that all along! Glad to see you jump on the wagon! Some of the more harsher people here would maybe call you a "tool" for this, but I won't. Very Happy Again, glad to see you jump on all the right bandwagons these days.


Thanks I think.

I was never under the impression that any Taiga drama was historically accurate. I made that mistake as I assumed such a huge factual lie would not be made and I had read little about the Korean war. Since then I realized just how much the Taiga's actually fabricate history. Yes I have learned much from the SA but that mistake I made regarding the Korean war was more out of laziness and quick posting about a subject I was not too familiar with. That was my learning experience. I never use Taiga's as a source for knowledge. Only entertainment.

Don't assume my "bandwagon" jumping comes from following what other knowledgeable people such as Tatsunoshi and Obenjo are writing. Yes, I learn a lot from them but my opinion on issues such as the 47 Ronin, Oda Nobunaga, and Sakamoto Ryoma I obtained from my readings from such authors as Jeroen Pieter Lamers, Marius Jansen, and Beatrice Bodart-Bailey.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: ryoma dense Reply with quote
Well lets say we just get a quick break from the Kool Aid just for a couple of years while Gou and Taira Kiyomori peddle their wears than he is back in 2013 as the sidekick to Katsu Kaishu .

I went to a lecture give by Mr Rom a few years back and amongst the "Whoppers he told "were such porkie pies as
(1)Ieyasu and the Eastern Army had 200,000 troops
and those poor bleeder's on the Western side could only muster some 75,000 and this is why they lost .
(2)Ieyasu personally watched and enjoyed cutting test's on live prisoner's.

Sadly the audience lapped all this up .
I also noticed that the use of the name Ryoma started to drop off and was replaced by a very very enthralled use of the term "The Dragon "and loving gazes and reverential smiles broke out all around and than we were bathed in light and the whole third floor of Borders was lifted up to Heaven .
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Laughing awesome.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: ryoma dense Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:

I also noticed that the use of the name Ryoma started to drop off and was replaced by a very very enthralled use of the term "The Dragon "and loving gazes and reverential smiles broke out all around and than we were bathed in light and the whole third floor of Borders was lifted up to Heaven .


Great imagery, Lemon! Laughing I enjoyed this article, and somehow, I think the fellow is protesting too much, ignoring the good things about having a role model, while focusing on the distortions that inevitably take place concerning popular historical figures. Could this be because the figure they're distorting is one of his own, as he is a Kochi boy himself?

If he's waiting for absolute fidelity in historical representation, he's gonna be waitin' a long time, as I don't think such a thing is possible in every particular. Perhaps what he is saying is that we, the human race, are immature, because everyone does this to some extent--all nations are guilty of this. The subject might be different, but the process is very familiar.

I'll have to say that whole "Dragon-worship" thing is quite a bit over the top, though. There's Kool-Aid and then there's KOOL-AID. Wink

(On a slightly related note, I skipped ahead in the Ryomaden Taiga to the last ep just for jollies and watched about 1/3 of it. The bit with Nakaoka having a good ol' sword clash with Kondo Isami was amusing, but really...) Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: rom Reply with quote
You know he was going on about how awful the Tokugawa were ,so i mentioned the revered potato samurai and their little trip to Aizu was not exactly a field trip and not very far from ethnic cleansing and he just glared and mumbled "what about Aizu ????"

PS I am convinced he at the time(both 2000 and 04) he had never heard of The Shogitai .Someone pointed out to him that it is actually Mito Tengu on the cover of his Shinsengumi book not the gumi .


PPS I do like the Shinsengumi in Ryomaden ,great scene where Kondo gets his face pushed in the mud by Sasaki Tadisaburo of Mimawarigumi (ep 32).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Aw, heck, guess this means I'm gonna have to buy the 2nd half after all!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: ryoma kool aid Reply with quote
yes i actually picked it up because of the Shinsengumi depiction .

That said avoid the Malay /Chinese Vol 2 for a start it only has 48 episodes so the final is missing and the subtitles are appalling ,Satsuma are called Turtle Soup Group ,because vol 1 had perfect subs (even though they vanish from time to time )i assumed vol 2 would be the same .not at all .better to get it from Kurotokagi he has a tv print .
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: rom Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
You know he was going on about how awful the Tokugawa were ,so i mentioned the revered potato samurai and their little trip to Aizu was not exactly a field trip and not very far from ethnic cleansing and he just glared and mumbled "what about Aizu ????"

PS I am convinced he at the time(both 2000 and 04) he had never heard of The Shogitai .Someone pointed out to him that it is actually Mito Tengu on the cover of his Shinsengumi book not the gumi .


PPS I do like the Shinsengumi in Ryomaden ,great scene where Kondo gets his face pushed in the mud by Sasaki Tadisaburo of Mimawarigumi (ep 32).
Funny, I don't remember that scene (if they cut it out of my cut-rate bad quality download I feel cheated now! Laughing) The interchange between Ryoma, Jutaro and O-ryo at the Teradaya was interesting. Harada Taizo actually makes Kondo appropriately menacing, more so than any other depiction of him I've seen. In a way, it is refreshing. In another way, it is strange, since I tend to think of him as Okubo Toshimichi from Atsu-hime! Shocked I guess I've reached a certain point in Taiga watching where stuff like that starts to affect my brain...

Anyway, I did a Google search on that image on the cover of Hillsborough's Shinsengumi book. It shows up as the illustration for the Battle of Koshu-Katsunuma, and the personage depicted in closeup is indeed Kondo Isami (both English language and Japanese wikipedia sites). Interestingly, I've also heard someone say that Hillsborough adorned his cover with an image of the Shogitai! I hadn't heard the Tengu-to one yet. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: rom Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
You know he was going on about how awful the Tokugawa were ,so i mentioned the revered potato samurai and their little trip to Aizu was not exactly a field trip and not very far from ethnic cleansing and he just glared and mumbled "what about Aizu ????"

PS I am convinced he at the time(both 2000 and 04) he had never heard of The Shogitai .Someone pointed out to him that it is actually Mito Tengu on the cover of his Shinsengumi book not the gumi .


PPS I do like the Shinsengumi in Ryomaden ,great scene where Kondo gets his face pushed in the mud by Sasaki Tadisaburo of Mimawarigumi (ep 32).


Yes, I just watched that episode a couple weeks ago with the Mimawarigumi. Very nice. Interesting how Iwasaki gave up Ryoma's name to the Shinsengumi. Was that really how it happened or was that reelly how it happened? Wink

At least they did reveal that one of those attempting to arrest Ryoma was killed. I was thinking they would not have even reported that in Ryomaden so as to make Ryoma into a saint who wouldn't harm a fly.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: ryoma kool aid Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
yes i actually picked it up because of the Shinsengumi depiction .

That said avoid the Malay /Chinese Vol 2 for a start it only has 48 episodes so the final is missing and the subtitles are appalling ,Satsuma are called Turtle Soup Group ,because vol 1 had perfect subs (even though they vanish from time to time )i assumed vol 2 would be the same .not at all .better to get it from Kurotokagi he has a tv print .


Thanks for the "heads-up" on this; Taiga are "keepers" for me so I appreciate the warning!

Does the "Turtle Soup" have potatoes in it? Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Interesting how Iwasaki gave up Ryoma's name to the Shinsengumi. Was that really how it happened or was that reelly how it happened?


It's fiction.

Quote:
At least they did reveal that one of those attempting to arrest Ryoma was killed.


You mean Mimawarigumi?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Quote:
Interesting how Iwasaki gave up Ryoma's name to the Shinsengumi. Was that really how it happened or was that reelly how it happened?


It's fiction.

Quote:
At least they did reveal that one of those attempting to arrest Ryoma was killed.


You mean Mimawarigumi?


In 1866 at the Teradaya where Ryoma uses a Smith & Wesson revolver during a raid by pro-bakufu police forces. I'm not certain that raid was conducted by Mimawarigumi.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's Teradaya Jiken.
It's not Mimawarigumi but Fushimi Bugyo.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
That's Teradaya Jiken.
It's not Mimawarigumi but Fushimi Bugyo.


Thanks.
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