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Kambei Shamada's kamon

 
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spartandude
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: Kambei Shamada's kamon Reply with quote
I searched, but did not locate any information. So I turn to your knowledge to find an answer to my query.

I am attempting to research the mon used in the costume of the character Kambei Shimada in Seven Samurai. It seems to be an Onaga-Mitsudomoe and with the thousands of kamon used I have not been able to find what clan (if any) association Kurasawa was giving Kambei. Shimada clan does not pull up any crest information in google searches (just mostly manga sites) and the city of Shimada yields no help as well. I have found many families that use the Mitsudomoe, but none with Onaga (long tail). The Mitsudomoe appears to be quite common especially with its association with shrines of Hachiman and the three horses region families.

This is the closest picture I have found on the internet:


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spartandude
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is another pic. It looks like it has identifiers next to it, but I can't read it. Number 131-18, Third up and third right from the bottom left. The site makes celebration brush sets and will put your family Kamon as a small plaque.
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
On the run, so it'll be quick, but 131-18 simply says "mitsuonagadomoe."

Last edited by nagaeyari on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spartandude
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sigh, thanks Nagaeyari. I thought I had something.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In my book on crests the same crest is described as;みつつおながどもえ John
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
三尾長巴 (Mitsu[tsu or no]-onaga--tomoe) means three long-tailed comma-shapes. The previous crest is called two long-tailed comma-shapes.
These are descriptions of the crests, not family names.

Kurosawa probably deliberately avoided crests that would be clearly associated with particular clans.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Variations of the tomoe are seen on many temples and are particularly associated with Hachiman. John
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spartandude
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Kurosawa probably deliberately avoided crests that would be clearly associated with particular clans.


That is the conclusion that I am coming to as well. Thank you all for your help.
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Josh Reyer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Per Kamon World, Tomoe kamon were often used by the Hidesato branch of the Fujiwara-uji and its offshoots.

Now, Kurosawa was heavily influenced by the stories of the Honchou Bugei Shouden, which was written in 1716. It was a collection of stories and legends of actual martial arts masters, of various ryuha, written by a high level practitioner of Tendo-ryu naginata. For example, in this book is a story of Yagyu Jubei having a practice match in front of Shogun Iemitsu. The match looked to be a draw, as seen by Iemitsu and Jubei's opponent. Jubei insisted that he had won, to which his opponent demanded he prove it by going with real blades. When they did so, Jubei handily cut him down. Kurosawa used this story to introduce Kyuzo.

Similarly, there's a story of Tsukahara Bokuden seeking training with an expert swordsman. The man wouldn't train him openly, but rather would randomly attack Bokuden with a wooden sword throughout the day and night. This went on until Bokuden had developed such a sense of awareness that one day the master attacked him from behind while he was making rice. Bokuden merely blocked the blow with the lid of the rice pot and continued making rice as if nothing had happened. This was the inspiration for the "Please, no jokes," scene with Gorobei.

Kambei was based on Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, founder of Shinkage-ryu. The scene where Kambei dresses as a monk to save a child comes from a story in the Honchou Bugei Shouden describing Kamiizumi doing the same thing at Myoukou-ji, in present day Ichinomiya, Aichi Prefecture.

Now, Kamiizumi's kamon wasn't a tomoe one, but his family was indeed a branch of the Hidesato line of the Fujiwara-clan. It may all be a coincidence, or maybe Kurosawa gave it some thought, did a little research, and purposely gave Kambei a kamon common to the same family of clans that Kamiizumi belonged to. We do know his notes on the seven samurai were meticulous.

At any rate, we can surmise, at least, that Kambei was a member of a little-known Shimada branch of the Fujiwara, descended from Fujiwara Hidesato!
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spartandude
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Josh Reyer wrote:
Per Kamon World, Tomoe kamon were often used by the Hidesato branch of the Fujiwara-uji and its offshoots.

Now, Kurosawa was heavily influenced by the stories of the Honchou Bugei Shouden, which was written in 1716. It was a collection of stories and legends of actual martial arts masters, of various ryuha, written by a high level practitioner of Tendo-ryu naginata. For example, in this book is a story of Yagyu Jubei having a practice match in front of Shogun Iemitsu. The match looked to be a draw, as seen by Iemitsu and Jubei's opponent. Jubei insisted that he had won, to which his opponent demanded he prove it by going with real blades. When they did so, Jubei handily cut him down. Kurosawa used this story to introduce Kyuzo.

Similarly, there's a story of Tsukahara Bokuden seeking training with an expert swordsman. The man wouldn't train him openly, but rather would randomly attack Bokuden with a wooden sword throughout the day and night. This went on until Bokuden had developed such a sense of awareness that one day the master attacked him from behind while he was making rice. Bokuden merely blocked the blow with the lid of the rice pot and continued making rice as if nothing had happened. This was the inspiration for the "Please, no jokes," scene with Gorobei.

Kambei was based on Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, founder of Shinkage-ryu. The scene where Kambei dresses as a monk to save a child comes from a story in the Honchou Bugei Shouden describing Kamiizumi doing the same thing at Myoukou-ji, in present day Ichinomiya, Aichi Prefecture.

Now, Kamiizumi's kamon wasn't a tomoe one, but his family was indeed a branch of the Hidesato line of the Fujiwara-clan. It may all be a coincidence, or maybe Kurosawa gave it some thought, did a little research, and purposely gave Kambei a kamon common to the same family of clans that Kamiizumi belonged to. We do know his notes on the seven samurai were meticulous.

At any rate, we can surmise, at least, that Kambei was a member of a little-known Shimada branch of the Fujiwara, descended from Fujiwara Hidesato!


Thank you sir. That is a close enough association to satisfy my curiosity.

Is there a translation or collection of the Honchou Bugei Shouden tales? You have me intrigued.
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Josh Reyer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
spartandude wrote:

Is there a translation or collection of the Honchou Bugei Shouden tales? You have me intrigued.

Not to my knowledge. I don't believe it's even been translated into modern Japanese.
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spartandude
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, well. Thank you anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, it has been translated...by J.M. Rogers in Monumenta Nipponica - getting copies of it is another thing, however.

I think it ran for three issues, although he didn't publish the whole thing - he dealt with the chapters on archery and sword. It's well worth a read if you can get hold of it.

If you have access to JSTOR, no problem. If not... I'm not sure how to get hold of it.

Honcho Bugei Shoden
Hinatsu Shigetaka
Monumenta Nipponica
Vol. 45, No. 3 (+4 and 5?) (Autumn, 1990), pp. 261-284

http://ichijoji.blogspot.com
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