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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:04 am    Post subject: The Chronicle of Lord Nobunaga Reply with quote
The Chronicle of Lord Nobunaga
Brill's Japanese Studies Library, ISBN 978 90 04 20162 0

Global Oriental lists it as going out in May 2011.

Anybody of the members studying in Universities has info about it ? Or better to wait a review from somebody of you guys ?

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Chronicle-Nobunaga-Japanese-Studies-Library/dp/9004201629
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I will certainly get my hands on it. The price is high, but looking forward to it. The good thing is that I will have the money to purchase the book.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just based on who is translating it, it should be a definitive translation of the Shinchokoki. A bit pricey, but if you prefer English over Japanese, I can't think of any reason not to buy it aside from the price.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've already declared to my wife that it will be my birthday present.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wait, you mean I get to read Ota Gyuichi in english?......SQUUEEEEEEE!

Oh but its pricey....that's what world class reserve libraries are for, hehehe. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just placed my order this morning. Very Happy I cannot wait to get my hands on it.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr No-Dachi wrote:
Oh but its pricey....
What else can you expect from Brill? But they do careful editing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Me wanna.

Is there another way to order it, besides through Amazon Japan?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drakken wrote:
Me wanna.

Is there another way to order it, besides through Amazon Japan?


well amazon.com offers it at $194.82 price (2%Just Kidding saving for pre-order)
I guess it is the US site.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep, Amazon US, Amazon UK, Amazon France, Amazon Canada...and of course you can buy it directly from the Brill site.

Well, you could, but like many scholarly books, it's been delayed and no word on a revised release date.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Yep, Amazon US, Amazon UK, Amazon France, Amazon Canada...and of course you can buy it directly from the Brill site.

Well, you could, but like many scholarly books, it's been delayed and no word on a revised release date.



As expected, I pre-ordered my copy awhile back and still waiting.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It looks like I will finally receive my copy later this month. I am so looking forward to it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mine will be here this Wednesday.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The best part of the book is the lengthy introduction giving the historiography of the work along with its reliability (and the extra info given in footnotes during the translation). Some of the more interesting points include the fact that Lamers considers Shinchoki to be largely fictional crap (and its account of Nagashino to have been made up), and that its author in turn thought the author (Gyuichi) of the Shinchokoki to be 'simple and stupid'.

In a quick skim, I've spotted a few errors of the type that always work their way in-including a part about the Hatano brothers where the translation is cut off in mid sentence. Overall, though, it's great.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
And even more than this book, I REALLY want to see two of Gyuichi's other books-the one on Hideyoshi and another on Ieyasu and Sekigahara.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks like I spoke too soon-the 'cut off' translations are something that appear through the book, and they're just something Ota does to segue into the next paragraph, so it's not a case of the printers screwing up.

This book might be $200, but it's worth every penny. It took Lamers and Elisonas 15 YEARS with both of them working on it to get the translation done, and it shows. They used 17th century Jesuit dictionaries and pronunciation guides to get the most accurate place name and personal names. They put together a lengthy explanation of the lunar/Julian calendars and give lots of examples of how Westerners routinely screw the dates up with the best example being Migatagahara, which was fought in 1573 by the Western calendar but is almost always listed as 1572 in Western books (the SA Wiki has it right.) Bethetsu would be proud. The two put together an amazingly clear and concise explanation of the different types of Japanese names/titles and how they relate to each other. It's easily one of the best and most informative premodern J-history books for people that are serious, and I haven't even gotten through the introduction yet! I hope somewhere down the line the price drops on this treasure so that more people can afford it.

Also, Lamers and Elisonas admit to being Nobunaga freaks who get together on a regular basis to celebrate Teh Tenma Maou. They really should get together with Domer and Les. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It sounds incredible!
Tempted to sell whatever I can to raise money for this. This is the kind of thing I never would have heard of where it not for the Samurai Archives. Does it carry on a little past the death of Nobunaga, or end immediately after Honnoji?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope the actual translation didn't take 15 years! I translated about 8 sections off and on over 4 weeks Laughing Which reminds me, eyeballing my translation on the blog, how does it match up to what's in the book? Bad or really bad? Just Kidding http://shogun-yashiki.blogspot.com/2011/01/translation-from-shinchokoki-battle-of.html
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Shibata wrote:
Does it carry on a little past the death of Nobunaga, or end immediately after Honnoji?


Nobunaga 'retires' on page 470, and it's wrapped up by 476. In that span Gyuichi touches on the Akechi assault on Nijo Castle, the burning of Azuchi, Ieyasu's scramble back to his homelands,, and a couple of other short incidents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Which reminds me, eyeballing my translation on the blog, how does it match up to what's in the book? Bad or really bad?


Let's see-they have the year as 1553, not 1552 (it's Tenbun 22). But ERROR-they contradict themselves in the timeline, saying it's 1552. If it really is Tenbun 22 4th month 17th day, it should be 1553. Instead of being "watched carefully", they have it as Nobuhide had always treated the Yamaguchi well. They have Akazuka being 15 cho east of Sannoyama and 15/16 cho north of Narumi, not splitting them and having the "15 cho E" be the starting location. They don't mention "Arakawa Yojûrô" dying instantly (although obviously he did), and have the soldiers pulling his body by the hilt of his jewel encrusted sword, not the scabbard. They have the Oda forces first retrieving the scabbard (not that the enemy kept pulling on it), and then later the sword, body, and head.

Mainly,it's minor differences in names-Okabe Gorobyoe/Okabe Gorbei Motonobu, Hagiwara Sukejuro/Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Narita Yaroku/Narita Yoroku, Arakawa Kiemon/Arakawa Wakiemon, Hasegawa Kyosuke/Hasegawa Aisuke. The names-who can say, as we've discussed in other threads recently there's a lot of discrepancies in Japanese sources as to how many of these names were pronounced.

Also, the tones are different-yours reads more like a straightforward military account, theirs is 'old style' monogatari, but they're saying the same thing. There are 72 different versions of the Shinchokoki as well, so maybe that might explain some of the other discrepancies.

Kit's translation:

"The Battle of San no Yama-Akatsuka

Oda Nobunaga
In the fourth month, 17th day of 1552, Oda Kazusa no suke Nobunaga was 19 years old (by contemporary Japanese reckoning). The lord of Narumi castle was Yamaguchi Samanosuke Noritsugu, and his son was Kurôjirô (Noriyoshi), who was 20 years old.

They were both watched carefully by lord Oda Bingo no kami Nobuhide, and after his death, they immediately attempted a rebellion, invading Owari with Suruga forces. It was an unpardonable act. Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was left guarding Narumi castle. Yamaguchi Samanosuke had a strategic fortress built at Kasadera, and deployed Kazurayama Nagayoshi, Okabe Gorbei Motonobu, Miura Samanosuke Yoshinari, Iinô Buzen no kami, and Asai Koshirô. Yamaguchi Samanosuke went to Nakamura, building a fortress in preparation for a seige.

Lord Oda Kozuke no suke Nobunaga was nineteen years old, with an army of 800. He passed through the village of Nakane on the way to Konarumi, and placed his troops on San no Yama. The 20 year old Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was approximately 15 Chô (1.6 Kilometers) to the East of San no Yama. He departed for Akatsuka, which was approximately 15 or 16 Chô (1.6 to 1.7 Kilometers) to the North of Narumi castle, with 1,500 troops. The vanguard was made up mainly of Ashigaru, led by Shimizu Matajûrô, Tsuge Sôjûrô, Nakamura Yohachirô, Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Narita Yoroku, Narita Sukeshirô, Shibayama Jintarô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Arakawa Matazô, and closed in on Akatsuka.
Seeing the situation from San no Yama, Kozuke no suke Nobunaga immediately dispatched troops to Akatsuka. The ashigaru vanguard included Arakawa Yojûrô, Arakawa Wakiemon, Hachiya Hannya no suke, Hasegawa Aisuke, Naitô Shôsuke, Aoyama Tôroku, Toda Sôjirô, and Katô Sukenojô.

When the armies were approximately five or six ken (9-11 meters) apart, the powerful archers on both sides fired arrows. Arakawa Yojûrô was struck deep beneath the visor of his helmet and fell from his horse, dying instantly. Enemy soldiers immediately grabbed his legs, others grabbed his scabbard, and began to drag him. Yojûrô’s allies grabbed his head and upper body to keep the enemy from taking his body. Yojûrô’s ornamented daito was approximately 1.8 meters long, and the scabbard width measured about 15-18 centimeters. The enemy pulled on the ornamented scabbard, while Yojûrô’s allies pulled the sword, his head and upper body, and pulled his body free of the enemy.

The melee lasted from approximately 10am to noon, with neither side able to get the upper hand. Yamaguchi forces killed that day included Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Mizukoshi Sukejûrô.

Because the armies were so close together, no one was able to take the heads of the people they had killed.

Kozuke no suke Nobunaga lost thirty cavalry.

Arakawa Matazô was captured alive by the Oda forces.
Akagawa Heishichi of the Oda forces was captured by the enemy."
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:


Mainly,it's minor differences in names-Okabe Gorobyoe/Okabe Gorbei Motonobu, Hagiwara Sukejuro/Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Narita Yaroku/Narita Yoroku, Arakawa Kiemon/Arakawa Wakiemon, Hasegawa Kyosuke/Hasegawa Aisuke. The names-who can say, as we've discussed in other threads recently there's a lot of discrepancies in Japanese sources as to how many of these names were pronounced.

Also, the tones are different-yours reads more like a straightforward military account, theirs is 'old style' monogatari, but they're saying the same thing. There are 72 different versions of the Shinchokoki as well, so maybe that might explain some of the other discrepancies.


I included the commonly known names which weren't part of the translation for ease of understanding who they actually were (in my original translation it was done via footnotes, but for the blog I just put them in). As for the writing of the names, I'm pretty sure I used the common modern "spellings" but I assume they had some sort of inside track on old spellings. As for "straightforward military account" since I tried to keep the English translation as close to the original text as possible with minimal to no exposition, I wonder if they added words to create nuance that is only hinted at in the text, or added nuance based on the known history. I would have to look, but I seem to remember the original saying "Saya" was what they were pulling, which I would assume means that the sword was sheathed, so technically they were pulling on the sword. Looks like I didn't do a bad job, though.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
As for "straightforward military account" since I tried to keep the English translation as close to the original text as possible with minimal to no exposition, I wonder if they added words to create nuance that is only hinted at in the text, or added nuance based on the known history.


Don't know. I am curious about the year, though-I'll have to pull my Japanese copy of the Shinchokoki later and see what year of Tenbun it was. And yeah, I thought the two translations were pretty close, as close as you usually see two translations of the same passage get in academia.

Just as an example on the tone,

you wrote: "The melee lasted from approximately 10am to noon, with neither side able to get the upper hand. "

they wrote: "The battle raged from the Hour of the Serpent (around 10 a.m.) to the Hour of the Horse (around noon). The men would strike blows at each other, unwilling to fall behind their comrades or be outdone by them".
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, the time was another case where I actually put the approximate time, but to maintain consistency (in keeping as close as possible) I should have put the "Japanese" times. Actually, now that I think about it, I was using the original archaic Japanese, but I was using a modern Japanese translation for reference when I hit something that I couldn't make sense out of, so that would probably account for most of the differences.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Come to think of it, Lamers might not be wrong. He states that Gyucihi only gives the year of an event five times in the "Initial Book", and of those he gives an incorrect year twice. One of these is Okehazama (which he gives as being in 1552), maybe this is the other one-so they listed the correct year in the timeline, but translated what he actually wrote in the main text. It's not pointed out as such, though, but maybe they'll point out the second error in the main text.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If anyone else plans on buying it, if you did so on amazon.com via the Samurai Archives store, it would be most appreciated:

http://astore.amazon.com/samurai-20/detail/9004201629
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