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Takeda Shingen: Reloaded
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Takeda Shingen: Reloaded Reply with quote


I thought I'd follow up Nobunaga Redux with a discussion about Takeda Shingen - in particular the circumstances surrounding his death, and his designs (or lack thereof) on Kyoto. So I'll start with some questions and comments in order to get the conversation started:

In regards to the apocryphal "sniper at Noda castle" theory of Takeda Shingen's wounding and eventual death, the sources I've looked at sum it up like this: Takeda Shingen was already ill before the siege of Noda castle, and that he in fact had collapsed soon after the Mikatagahara campaign. Shingen soon began to eat meat again for his health, even though he had given it up nearly a decade before for religious reasons. His vassals were well aware of his illness, which is listed as an "internal illness" rather than injury (which doesn't indicate being shot by a sniper), and also listed as a lung problem. The Koyo Gunkan states:

On the 11th day of the 4th month around 1pm, Lord Shingen's condition took a turn for the worst. His pulse became extremely rapid. On the night of the 12th, approximately 9pm, he developed an abscess/rash in his mouth, and 5 or 6 of his teeth fell out. He gradually weakened.

He died soon after. So the sniper theory doesn't seem to hold up, so it is a good question to ask where the Sniper Theory actually came from. The source appears to be Edo era Tokugawa documents that might be trying to give the Tokugawa credit for killing Shingen, but currently, where do all of the Turnbulls et al get the Sniper Theory from? Who popularized it? And, secondly, what might his actual illness have been?

Also, modern (at least Western) historians seem to be divided on, or question, if Shingen had any designs on Kyoto at all. They don't seem to indicate that there is any real proof that he was interested in trying to "take Kyoto". However, I recently translated a passage from a biography on Takeda Shingen by Isogai Masayoshi, which tells of Shingen's final talk with Katsuyori before his death:

...the fact that I wasn't able to raise my flag in the imperial capital has been my most obsessive, if unrealistic, regret. If it becomes known that I have left this world, my enemies will take the opportunity to rise against you. Therefore, for the next three to four years, keep my passing a secret, and secure and fortify the defenses of the domain, build the military forces, and if you are ever in a position to take the capital, I will be satisfied.

I would have to check to be sure, but I don't believe this came from the Koyo Gunkan. But if memory serves, they story about Shingen yelling out "Raise the flags at Seta bridge!" just before he died, did come from the Koyo Gunkan. So, if this is any indication, it seems fairly clear that Shingen did in fact intend to take Kyoto, or at least wanted to - so why the division amongst historians in the West, or could it be that Shingen simply entertained the idea, but never seriously considered it in his plans?

So let's kick this off with some thoughts and comments!!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I belive another part of the koyo gunkan that you translated stated he had spots on his hands and feet. but i hypothesise from descriptions given a few diseases can be the culprit. my top three picks are tertiary syphyllis possibly cancer of the lung or stomach and even scurvy. when i get more time i will research it more in depth.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kagemusha pushed the sniper theory in my opinion. Then again, people have to remember it was a movie for entertainment purposes. Sniper theory made the movie more entertaining for sure.

After Shingen's success at the Battle of Mikatagahara, he seemed to one the move. Again, the question is still out, was it a local campaign or the quest for Kyoto? Shingen knew he was ill and if his quest was Kyoto, the time was now since Ieyasu was beat up and had Nobunaga on his sights. The Azai and the Asakura was giving Shingen a hand.

Timing was Nobunaga's friend and Shingen's worst enemy. It was winter and the Asakura retreated back to Echizen and they were tired since they were campaign mode for months. The winter cold made Shingen's illness worse. Once Shingen knew the about the Asakura retreat, he knew he would never live to see his army march to the capital.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Takeda Shingen: Reloaded Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
So the sniper theory doesn't seem to hold up, so it is a good question to ask where the Sniper Theory actually came from. The source appears to be Edo era Tokugawa documents that might be trying to give the Tokugawa credit for killing Shingen, but currently, where do all of the Turnbulls et al get the Sniper Theory from? Who popularized it? And, secondly, what might his actual illness have been?


Unfortunately I think I just turned in the copy of the Mikawa Go Fudoki that I had borrowed through ILL. I'm sure that would have to have it, if it was put forth by the Tokugawa.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Takeda Shingen: Reloaded Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


Unfortunately I think I just turned in the copy of the Mikawa Go Fudoki that I had borrowed through ILL. I'm sure that would have to have it, if it was put forth by the Tokugawa.


I did read in a secondary source that it was Tokugawa documents, but I don't think it said specifically what. But I'm guessing you're probably right.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:


After Shingen's success at the Battle of Mikatagahara, he seemed to one the move. Again, the question is still out, was it a local campaign or the quest for Kyoto? Shingen knew he was ill and if his quest was Kyoto, the time was now since Ieyasu was beat up and had Nobunaga on his sights. The Azai and the Asakura was giving Shingen a hand.


I'm wondering a few things:

How far in advance did he plan to go to Kyoto, IF he planned to?

What changed to allow him to turn his sights on Kyoto IF he planned to?

DID he actually have a plan or was it off the cuff, or did he not intend to at all, but just thought about it?

It seems reasonable that he was, but what proof really exists to support it?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I must admit, as someone who's never really focused on the Sengoku, I was unaware that the sniper theory was a myth. Thanks for posting about this; it's really interesting.

So that I'm contributing to the conversation, let me offer that the Wakan sansai zue 和漢三才図会, an encyclopedia compiled in 1712, states that:

「武田信玄は野田村の合戦で鉄砲に当たり、陣に帰って、当寺で逝去した。」

"Takeda Shingen was struck by a teppô at the battle of Noda Village, returned to his camp, and at this same temple died."

I'm not sure which temple they're referring to - maybe 当寺 isn't really referring to a temple, but to his camp (unless his camp was at a temple?). But, in any case, it also does not explicitly say he died from the bullet wound either. Nor does it mention a flute. Have you guys come across a source for the flute being in the story?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting - I assume they got that from the Tokugawa documents. But, since Shingen died a full 2 months after Noda, it doesn't really add up.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am just going on what I know and have (resources). Unfortunately, I do not own a copy of the Koyo Gunkan. If Shingen plan was Kyoto, the time perfect since he had the tide in his side. Akiyama Nobutomo captured Iwamura Castle and took Nobunaga's aunt as a wife.

Winter even though it was not good for Shingen's health, did have its posities in my opinion. Keeping Kenshin at home in Echigo. Correct me if I am wrong, Sanada Yukitaka stayed home and did not join the campaign to keep a lookout on the Uesugi?

Or

The current campaign solidified his holdings giving Katsuyori the chance to raise the Takeda flags if the chance ever came up.

I am wondering when Shingen was about to die and had any second thoughts about Yoshinobu's death. Thinking to himself "Can the Takeda house hold with Katsuyori at the top?" That begs the question if Shingen wanted to keep his death a secret since he knew Katsuyori was not able to do the job.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems the Mikawa Fudoki is responsible for the flute story-it's Sadler's main source for his biography of Ieyasu, and he mentions the flute in it. At the same time this no doubt made it the Western source that established the flute as canon, especially since Turnbull picked up on it. Turnbull, proving he jumps bandwagons with the best of them, turns around and insults Sadler in his foreward to the recent reprint of it for being uncritical and using "restricted sources" and being "almost totally lacking in references"-and here I thought that would be Turnbull. Mikawa Fudoki is also responsible for turning 1000 guns at Nagashino into 3000.

According to an issue of Rekishi Gunzou that features Shingen, there were at least two kabuki plays in the Edo period that featured Shingen being lured to his death by the playing of a flute (both probably ran six hours to show five minutes of action ). Wink Whether these were following Mikawa Fudoki's lead or influenced it I can't say since I don't know when the book was written.

As to Shingen wanting to go to Kyoto-well, I don't know. I've always figured everyone just ASSUMED he wanted to go since that was the ultimate dream of most daimyo. Despite the accolades he's gotten over the years, Shingen always seemed to me to be more of a short term planner and dealing with things on a local level-taking advantage of opportunities and situations as they came up. He didn't display much of the long term strategic, social, and economic planning that Nobunaga displayed (even though Nobunaga had a habit of being a bit too...err...ambitious and biting off more than he could handle). The merry go round of alliances with the Imagawa and Hojo also somewhat show his predilection for short term planning. Wasting years and years having his every move dependent on Uesugi Kenshin's reaction also point to a lack of long range plans (or perhaps just an inability to make any with Kenshin set up in Echigo). Moving against Ieyasu in the Mikata-ga-hara campaign in my mind is more of a deal where he was moving against Nobunaga (who just happened to be in the Kansai) rather than a move on Kyoto itself. Around the same time, Shingen advised Matsunaga Hisahide that it would be a good time for him (Hisahide) to regain power in the capital by moving against Nobunaga-not something he might have done had he been seeking Kyoto for himself.

The strange thing was that Shingen wasn't at war with Nobunaga (even though there had been some scuffles with the Oda on his western borders) until Teh Tenma Maou sent Ieyasu reinforcements for Mikata-ga-hara. While most of them ran off when the battle started, Shingen collected enough of their heads to identify an Oda retainer and sent it to Nobunaga, following it up with his "five sins of Nobunaga" letter to the Shogun. Contrary to what one would expect, the Shogun didn't want Shingen to make an open break with Nobunaga like this, but Shingen refused-making one wonder if the Takeda were actually ever part of the so-called 'Anti-Nobunaga' alliance or just acting on their own.

As to the dramatic deathbed speech in that biography, sounds a bit too convenient. Does the author give a source (assuming it's a Japanese book from the 70's, probably not)? Sounds more like something that might have been in one of those kabuki plays. The bit about keeping his death secret obviously never happened since the Oda, Tokugawa and Uesugi (among others, no doubt) knew about it almost immediately. All in all, I think Shingen was moving more against Nobunaga than going for a 'march on Kyoto'. Of course, since to do the latter the former would be an integral step, it might have been a natural progression assuming the political situation would have allowed it afterwards.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
both probably ran six hours to show five minutes of action


Most likely Smile

And it's also likely, as you say, that kabuki would have invented any number of alternate stories that then came to have currency - such as the flute, or the kagemusha idea - though I'm not off-hand familiar with any plays featuring Shingen, so I wouldn't really know.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stole my thunder Tatsunoshi. Laughing Laughing If Shingen was a short term planner, did he have enough logistics for a long campaign such as Kyoto? Nobunaga bit off more than he can chew? Oh yeah, at times he did. Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have to go with the idea that I had always assumed that all the daimyo dreamed of taking Kyoto, sort of in the same way that most (all) US politicians dream of being president--it just isn't always something that they are ready to do.

I don't see prodding Hisahide to go for the capital as being a hindrance to Shingen taking it later. He could have been hoping that Hisahide would put enough pressure on Nobunaga that Shingen could then come in behind. If both the Oda and Matsunaga forces depleted themselves fighting each other, maybe he felt it would provide him an advantage.

It is strange that Shingen is given so many accolades but really didn't break out in the same way that Nobunaga did (and Yoshimoto tried). On the other hand, he seems to have been a powerful enough force that the Takeda held their own until he passed away--for all his flaws, the dramatic shift after his death in the fortunes of the Takeda forces say something positive about him. Whether that was his leadership skills, or whether it was just the perception of the Takeda with him at the helm is what I would wonder about.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
I have to go with the idea that I had always assumed that all the daimyo dreamed of taking Kyoto, sort of in the same way that most (all) US politicians dream of being president--it just isn't always something that they are ready to do.

I don't see prodding Hisahide to go for the capital as being a hindrance to Shingen taking it later. He could have been hoping that Hisahide would put enough pressure on Nobunaga that Shingen could then come in behind. If both the Oda and Matsunaga forces depleted themselves fighting each other, maybe he felt it would provide him an advantage.

It is strange that Shingen is given so many accolades but really didn't break out in the same way that Nobunaga did (and Yoshimoto tried). On the other hand, he seems to have been a powerful enough force that the Takeda held their own until he passed away--for all his flaws, the dramatic shift after his death in the fortunes of the Takeda forces say something positive about him. Whether that was his leadership skills, or whether it was just the perception of the Takeda with him at the helm is what I would wonder about.



Like the idea on US politicians dreaming of becoming President. Great way to sum it up. That is the question I have about the Takeda house. Did Shingen knew right before his death that the Takeda house would be in trouble with Katsuyori in charge?[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:


Did Shingen knew right before his death that the Takeda house would be in trouble with Katsuyori in charge?


I think LtDomer could chime in here based on his analysis of Nagashino - if it was as blatantly poorly conducted and executed as the "legend" of Nagashino says, Shingen would have had to have an inkling that Katsuyori wasn't a good general or strategist, but if the legend is wrong, maybe not - what's the word on Nagashino so far Mr. 'Domer?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:


I think LtDomer could chime in here based on his analysis of Nagashino - if it was as blatantly poorly conducted and executed as the "legend" of Nagashino says, Shingen would have had to have an inkling that Katsuyori wasn't a good general or strategist, but if the legend is wrong, maybe not - what's the word on Nagashino so far Mr. 'Domer?


If Shingen knew if Katsuyori was not up for the job, I wonder if he had any regrets about Yoshinobu's death? That begs the question, if Yoshinobu was still alive and kept his nose clean, would the Takeda house still be in good hands?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:

If Shingen knew if Katsuyori was not up for the job, I wonder if he had any regrets about Yoshinobu's death? That begs the question, if Yoshinobu was still alive and kept his nose clean, would the Takeda house still be in good hands?


Well, I'm curious what 'domer will say in regards to Katsuyori's performance at Nagashino before I guess what Shingen thought of him, but he did have more than one son, so he had options. My understanding is that Yoshinobu was planning a coup and got busted, and that was the reason for his suicide. I'm sure it sent a message something like "If I'll kill my own son, what do you think I'll do to you if you betray me".
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kitsuno, great point regarding Yoshinobu and Shingen. Thanks for posting this thread since I find it interesting. Hopefully, this thread will clear things up a bit.

At the San Diego Book-Off branch, they have a novel on Katsuyori and another one on his wife.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
I have to go with the idea that I had always assumed that all the daimyo dreamed of taking Kyoto, sort of in the same way that most (all) US politicians dream of being president--it just isn't always something that they are ready to do.


I think this is a very dangerous and misleading assumption to make. Typically your average daimyo was fighting for a. survival, b. control of his own domain vis a vis his own retainers, local unaffiliated types (jizamurai, etc.), c. his neighbors. It was only the daimyo who could effectively control their own territory, and then extend that to control of multiple provinces, who could have even let the thought of Kyoto enter their heads. And the further from Kyoto, the more remote (pun intended) the thought would have been. I highly doubt the Shimazu would have entertained the thought in their wildest dreams. Perhaps (in a world without Hideyoshi confronting them right as they were about to take all of Kyushu) they would have once Kyushu was fully under their control, but I think the powers at the ends (Kyushu, Tohoku) were rather more comfortable with chaos in the middle to prevent any interference in their regional activities, rather than a desire to move to the center.

The closer to the capital, the more present the idea is, and the more access one has to getting there. I wouldn't equate it to US politics at all, though I know quite a few local politicians who have no desire to go beyond working for their particular location (my family was in local politics back home for a while).
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Mikawa Fudoki is also responsible for turning 1000 guns at Nagashino into 3000.


Mikawa Go Fudoki gets it from Shinchoki.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Did Shingen knew right before his death that the Takeda house would be in trouble with Katsuyori in charge?


kitsuno wrote:
I think LtDomer could chime in here based on his analysis of Nagashino - if it was as blatantly poorly conducted and executed as the "legend" of Nagashino says, Shingen would have had to have an inkling that Katsuyori wasn't a good general or strategist, but if the legend is wrong, maybe not - what's the word on Nagashino so far Mr. 'Domer?


Hindsight is great, isn't it? We all have this image of Katsuyori as a terrible leader. At the time, there was no indication that he would end up as a bad leader, and his aggressiveness was considered a strength and something that made him a GOOD leader. He was well respected. And perhaps I'm remembering too much from Fuurin Kazan, but didn't Shingen make him his heir over Yoshinobu, prior to Yoshinobu's death? Katsuyori, from everything I've ever seen, was by far Shingen's favorite. Again, perhaps this is just hindsight setup in the Koyo Gunkan or something to make the story more dramatic when he fails, but that was always my impression.

That's one of the things that fascinates me about Nagashino. The results show Katsuyori made a huge mistake in attacking the Oda/Tokugawa position. Yet he doesn't seem to have been a bad commander, and was well respected prior to Nagashino. Pre-Nagashino Katsuyori and post-Nagashino Katsuyori were two different animals entirely. It really affected him and made him gun-shy (again, pun intended). So, what's the psychology behind *WHY* he attacked?

I personally think that I like the backstory in the Mikawa Go Fudoki as a possible reason. Just because it's the "official" story doesn't mean EVERYTHING in it is wrong and should be ignored. If he intended to take Okazaki through a plot with Oga Yashiro opening the castle to him, knocking Ieyasu out of the fight, then he would have had to be incredibly disappointed when that didn't work out. Yoshida-jo was going to be his consolation prize, but didn't work out either. So by the time he got to Nagashino, he was on his third strike--another "failure", and his whole mobilization and invasion of Tokugawa territory would be for nothing. Combine this with the result of Mikata ga hara 3 years before, where the Takeda routed a combined Tokugawa/Oda army, and it becomes a little bit easier to understand why he thought he'd have a chance. What Katsuyori didn't realize is that Nobunaga didn't just send some scrubs who weren't really interested this time around, he brought himself and his best troops. This was Nobunaga's chance to really get Katsuyori after missing several opportunities over the last few years. It was also vital to Nobunaga, because it was possible that the Tokugawa were going to bolt from his side if he didn't come back them up this time. Katsuyori, I think, made assumptions based on the last battle 3 years before. He'd been riding a wave of success against the Tokugawa/Oda, taking Akechi-jo in Mino, Takatenjin-jo in Totomi (which his FATHER wasn't able to do!), so I think he had an inflated impression of his capacity, and ignored the facts in front of him. Does this make him a bad commander? No, it's easy enough to do. It made him a bad commander THAT DAY. What's amazing, though, is how this one battle crushed him as a leader, and he wasn't ever able to really do anything after Nagashino. His ego was destroyed, and he spent the next 7 years playing defense. He "failed" so completely at Nagashino that he never felt the confidence to take any offensive action on a large scale. And so that's the impression we're left with, from the "winner's" histories of the Shinchokoki, Shinchoki, and Mikawa Go Fudoki, and the "loser's" history of the Koyo Gunkan, written by a faithful retainer of his father, who saw nothing but failure in the son and blamed him for all that went wrong.

Really, Katsuyori's a pretty sad character. I kind of feel for him. Nagashino was a blow, but it didn't need to be as bad of a blow as he let it become.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
owari no utsuke wrote:
Did Shingen knew right before his death that the Takeda house would be in trouble with Katsuyori in charge?


kitsuno wrote:
I think LtDomer could chime in here based on his analysis of Nagashino - if it was as blatantly poorly conducted and executed as the "legend" of Nagashino says, Shingen would have had to have an inkling that Katsuyori wasn't a good general or strategist, but if the legend is wrong, maybe not - what's the word on Nagashino so far Mr. 'Domer?


Hindsight is great, isn't it? We all have this image of Katsuyori as a terrible leader. At the time, there was no indication that he would end up as a bad leader, and his aggressiveness was considered a strength and something that made him a GOOD leader. He was well respected. And perhaps I'm remembering too much from Fuurin Kazan, but didn't Shingen make him his heir over Yoshinobu, prior to Yoshinobu's death? Katsuyori, from everything I've ever seen, was by far Shingen's favorite. Again, perhaps this is just hindsight setup in the Koyo Gunkan or something to make the story more dramatic when he fails, but that was always my impression.

That's one of the things that fascinates me about Nagashino. The results show Katsuyori made a huge mistake in attacking the Oda/Tokugawa position. Yet he doesn't seem to have been a bad commander, and was well respected prior to Nagashino. Pre-Nagashino Katsuyori and post-Nagashino Katsuyori were two different animals entirely. It really affected him and made him gun-shy (again, pun intended). So, what's the psychology behind *WHY* he attacked?

I personally think that I like the backstory in the Mikawa Go Fudoki as a possible reason. Just because it's the "official" story doesn't mean EVERYTHING in it is wrong and should be ignored. If he intended to take Okazaki through a plot with Oga Yashiro opening the castle to him, knocking Ieyasu out of the fight, then he would have had to be incredibly disappointed when that didn't work out. Yoshida-jo was going to be his consolation prize, but didn't work out either. So by the time he got to Nagashino, he was on his third strike--another "failure", and his whole mobilization and invasion of Tokugawa territory would be for nothing. Combine this with the result of Mikata ga hara 3 years before, where the Takeda routed a combined Tokugawa/Oda army, and it becomes a little bit easier to understand why he thought he'd have a chance. What Katsuyori didn't realize is that Nobunaga didn't just send some scrubs who weren't really interested this time around, he brought himself and his best troops. This was Nobunaga's chance to really get Katsuyori after missing several opportunities over the last few years. It was also vital to Nobunaga, because it was possible that the Tokugawa were going to bolt from his side if he didn't come back them up this time. Katsuyori, I think, made assumptions based on the last battle 3 years before. He'd been riding a wave of success against the Tokugawa/Oda, taking Akechi-jo in Mino, Takatenjin-jo in Totomi (which his FATHER wasn't able to do!), so I think he had an inflated impression of his capacity, and ignored the facts in front of him. Does this make him a bad commander? No, it's easy enough to do. It made him a bad commander THAT DAY. What's amazing, though, is how this one battle crushed him as a leader, and he wasn't ever able to really do anything after Nagashino. His ego was destroyed, and he spent the next 7 years playing defense. He "failed" so completely at Nagashino that he never felt the confidence to take any offensive action on a large scale. And so that's the impression we're left with, from the "winner's" histories of the Shinchokoki, Shinchoki, and Mikawa Go Fudoki, and the "loser's" history of the Koyo Gunkan, written by a faithful retainer of his father, who saw nothing but failure in the son and blamed him for all that went wrong.

Really, Katsuyori's a pretty sad character. I kind of feel for him. Nagashino was a blow, but it didn't need to be as bad of a blow as he let it become.


From what I understand, Katsuyori was respected pre- Nagashino, but after the battle, he fell apart. Also I think is is say to say he was overconfident after Akechi and Takatenjin Castle victories.

I am just thinking about Yoshinobu. Do you think the relationship between him and Shingen was so bad (before he his planned coup) that papa made Katsuyori the man in charge?

Yeah, Nobunaga brought his best since he did not want to be humiliated again and knew what was at stake.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How could Shingen's failure to completely defeat Kenshin allow him to believe he could successfully take and control Kyoto. I know he apparently left Sanada Yukitaka to watch the Uesugi but I find it hard to believe Shingen could ever truly consider Kyoto while the Hojo and Uesugi remained such serious threats on his border. Maybe it was a dream he had but maybe nothing more than a dream in his mind.

LordAmeth, I'm surprised that you had not heard that the sniper theory was essentially a myth. It shows you how widespread the belief in the sniper theory is that someone as familiar with Japanese history, although not the sengoku, would believe that it was a snipers bullet that took Takeda Shingen's life. Although it has been written about by some authors I think a lot of the strength of the sniper myth comes from films, especially Kagemusha.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:


LordAmeth, I'm surprised that you had not heard that the sniper theory was essentially a myth. It shows you how widespread the belief in the sniper theory is that someone as familiar with Japanese history, although not the sengoku, would believe that it was a snipers bullet that took Takeda Shingen's life. Although it has been written about by some authors I think a lot of the strength of the sniper myth comes from films, especially Kagemusha.


It's everywhere though, even Wicrapedia mentions it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
From what I understand, Katsuyori was respected pre- Nagashino, but after the battle, he fell apart. Also I think is is say to say he was overconfident after Akechi and Takatenjin Castle victories.


Um, isn't this exactly what I just said? I doubt it

Quote:
I am just thinking about Yoshinobu. Do you think the relationship between him and Shingen was so bad (before he his planned coup) that papa made Katsuyori the man in charge?


Don't know. As I said, most of my knowledge on that is more impression than hard sources. My impression is that Katsuyori was favored from birth, and if anything this favoritism hurt the relationship between Yoshinobu and Shingen, not the other way around.
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