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Takeda Shingen: Reloaded
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owari no utsuke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Domer, thanks for clarifying the Katsuyori pre-Nagashino. I can understand Katsuyori's favoritism destroying the Yoshinobu/Shingen relationship.

Here a link about the fall of Takatenjin Castle.

http://sengoku.wablog.com/532.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It's everywhere though, even Wicrapedia mentions it.


Well, I imagine that Wikipedia mentions it because I put it there. At least on the Siege of Noda article which I created years ago and haven't looked at since.

^_^; <-- embarrassment.

I don't think I've touched the main Takeda Shingen article though.

Of course, the wonderful thing about Wikipedia is that instead of simply criticizing it, anyone (that means you too!) can edit it, make it better, remove these kinds of myths and misinformation.

The Samurai Archives Wiki is also a wonderful place for this kind of thing.

Quote:
LordAmeth, I'm surprised that you had not heard that the sniper theory was essentially a myth.


As for why I didn't know about it originally, well, like you say I'm not exactly Sengoku-focused, and I just haven't read that much about the subject. I saw this sniper theory in Turnbull's book, and while I have since learned not to trust him so much, I haven't read much else about Sengoku (or about Shingen more specifically), and thus haven't had opportunity, I guess, to come across any other account.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:


Of course, the wonderful thing about Wikipedia is that instead of simply criticizing it, anyone (that means you too!) can edit it, make it better, remove these kinds of myths and misinformation.



honestly, after all I've been through I'm morally opposed to helping wikipedia in any way whatsoever.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I know. But I had to throw that out there anyway.

Meanwhile, there's still the S-A wiki...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
According to the J-Wiki, the Mikawa Go-fudoki 三河後風土記 was probably written about the middle of the 17th century, so I would think before any kabuki plays. The shogun had a reworked edition 改正三河後風土記 made about 1837, and there were Meiji period and modern editions.
Also the page on Shingen says the Tokugawa scholar Arai Shiraishi's relates (as an anecdote?) an account that Shingen was killed by a sniper at Noda Castle in his Hankan-pu 藩翰, a collection of the histories of all the daimyo houses. This book would have course become a standard source.
In English, Papinot (1910) says Shingen was struck by a bullet and fell from his horse at Noda and died shortly afterwards. Reischauer et al's History of East Asia (1958) said he died of a wound. So until recently, his death at Noda (I don't know about the flute, though) seems to have been accepted as standard history.
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Although it has been written about by some authors I think a lot of the strength of the sniper myth comes from films, especially Kagemusha.
I doubt that the strength of a story that has apparently been around for several hundred years comes from a movie as recent as 1980. In English I agree that it probably popularized by Sadler. Sadler was a source for Oliver Statler's 1961 Japanese Inn, which has the story (one of my favorite books. My own subtitle for it is "the Edo Period as the Japanese popularly know it".). Then Turnbull, whenever he wrote. With nothing popular written against the account in English, it is hard to blame Kagemusha.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
the Tokugawa scholar Arai Shiraishi


Unless we're talking about someone different, 新井白石 is most commonly known as Arai Hakuseki. Don't think I've ever seen him called Shiraishi, but I could be wrong...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The fact that there are no contemporary documents that I've seen that mentions a sniper, and the fact that he died 2 full months after the siege of Noda castle, aside from everything else already mentioned, is enough to really throw it into question.

As for Turnbull, whatever he wrote surely came word for word from Papinot, although presumably uncited.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
Bethestu: the Tokugawa scholar Arai Shiraishi

Unless we're talking about someone different, 新井白石 is most commonly known as Arai Hakuseki. Don't think I've ever seen him called Shiraishi, but I could be wrong...
I don't think I have either. Sorry about that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
I don't think I have either. Sorry about that.


The valiant canine star of Chikamatsu's Sagami Nyuudou Senbiki no Inu is named "Shiraishi" in a deliberate channeling of Arai Hakuseki and his spirit of reform.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
As for Turnbull, whatever he wrote surely came word for word from Papinot, although presumably uncited.


Well, this is a rare exception to the 'Papinot' rule Laughing -it came from Sadler, who Turnbull admits is one of his major sources in his forward to the recent reprint. As Bethetsu mentioned, the Papinot account doesn't mention the flute. But Turnbull's account was still uncited.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu, I know that the story of the sniper has been around for several hundred years. I just meant that for many people today, the films reinforce the image. Sorry for the confusion.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:


Well, this is a rare exception to the 'Papinot' rule Laughing -it came from Sadler, who Turnbull admits is one of his major sources in his forward to the recent reprint. As Bethetsu mentioned, the Papinot account doesn't mention the flute. But Turnbull's account was still uncited.


Blame it on a late night Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
As for Turnbull, whatever he wrote surely came word for word from Papinot, although presumably uncited.


Well, this is a rare exception to the 'Papinot' rule Laughing -it came from Sadler, who Turnbull admits is one of his major sources in his forward to the recent reprint. As Bethetsu mentioned, the Papinot account doesn't mention the flute. But Turnbull's account was still uncited.


75% of what Turnbull writes about Nagashino comes from Sadler. Word For Word. While I will stop short of saying he "plagiarizes" (he does list Sadler in the bibliography in his book The Samurai: A Military History, which he then "cites" in his Nagashino book), let's just say it would likely get me dismissed from school if I "cited" in the same way. I've compared the books side by side, and it's...sketchy at best.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just found another place on the 'net that attributes Shingen's death to a "sniper's bullet", some guy named Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote in a paper on the S-A site:

Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote:

His father (Shingen) had tried defeating the Tokugawa several times, until stopped by a sniper's bullet.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
I just found another place on the 'net that attributes Shingen's death to a "sniper's bullet", some guy named Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote in a paper on the S-A site:

Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote:

His father (Shingen) had tried defeating the Tokugawa several times, until stopped by a sniper's bullet.


In a crappy paper that should have been about 50 pages to get to the level of depth he wanted to, but he was told by his instructor he had to limit it to 5 pages, so he pretty much ripped off the most widely available source (Turnbull) in order to finish the assignment and get on with his military career. I wonder what happened to him, and if he's ever going to go back and do something about that? I bet he's going to spend a whole semester working on a paper about the sources of Nagashino, and spend the summer and another semester redoing the original analysis in a way that does it justice.

Oh, and just to point out, he didn't really give a blarg why Shingen died, only that he did. Really, does it MATTER how he died? No, not really. Only that he did, and therefore took pressure off Nobunaga, and set things up for his son to get his ass handed to him at Nagashino.

AND, let me reiterate, that Ledbetter guy is almost as much a hack as that Tony Bryant jackass. Whatever happened to either of those two?!?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


Oh, and just to point out, he didn't really give a blarg why Shingen died, only that he did. Really, does it MATTER how he died? No, not really. Only that he did, and therefore took pressure off Nobunaga, and set things up for his son to get his ass handed to him at Nagashino.


It's important to snobby history nerds!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
It's important to snobby history nerds!


Somewhere, some doctoral student writing his thesis on Japanese medical poultices used to treat sniper wounds during the early 1570's in Kai province is cursing my name, shaking his fist as he shouts "IT DOES MATTER, DAMN YOU!!!"
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
I just found another place on the 'net that attributes Shingen's death to a "sniper's bullet", some guy named Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote in a paper on the S-A site:

Nathan H. Ledbetter wrote:

His father (Shingen) had tried defeating the Tokugawa several times, until stopped by a sniper's bullet.


In a crappy paper that should have been about 50 pages to get to the level of depth he wanted to, but he was told by his instructor he had to limit it to 5 pages, so he pretty much ripped off the most widely available source (Turnbull) in order to finish the assignment and get on with his military career. I wonder what happened to him, and if he's ever going to go back and do something about that? I bet he's going to spend a whole semester working on a paper about the sources of Nagashino, and spend the summer and another semester redoing the original analysis in a way that does it justice.

Oh, and just to point out, he didn't really give a blarg why Shingen died, only that he did. Really, does it MATTER how he died? No, not really. Only that he did, and therefore took pressure off Nobunaga, and set things up for his son to get his ass handed to him at Nagashino.

AND, let me reiterate, that Ledbetter guy is almost as much a hack as that Tony Bryant jackass. Whatever happened to either of those two?!?


Tony Bryant has not been around for a while. I've only read one of his books but I thought he was somewhat respected here as a writer/historian?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:

I've only read one of his books but I thought he was somewhat respected here as a writer/historian?



----------------zzzzzzoooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmm---->

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even Sadler was skeptical about the sniper theory.

(p. 89) "Meanwhile Shingen was taken ill, according to some reports, while according to another and more picturesque though not necessarily more trustworthy account he was wounded by a bullet fired by a sharpshooter from the castle."

He goes on about what happened before getting capped, but I think Sadler made the case that Shingen's death was due to illness.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Tony Bryant has not been around for a while. I've only read one of his books but I thought he was somewhat respected here as a writer/historian?


ZOOOOOM indeed.

You do realize that "that Ledbetter guy" I'm referring to is ME, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Tony Bryant has not been around for a while. I've only read one of his books but I thought he was somewhat respected here as a writer/historian?


ZOOOOOM indeed.

You do realize that "that Ledbetter guy" I'm referring to is ME, right?
Shimber my timbers! That's YOU?!? Shocked Or wait a minute...Domer/Ledbetter = Tony Bryant? Wow. I go overseas for a week and come back to find all is not what it seemed. What's next? Tornadoes turns out to be Tatsunoshi in disguise?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Domer/Ledbetter = Tony Bryant?


I doubt it

Even I'm not that...

..crotchety.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Domer/Ledbetter = Tony Bryant?


Hmmmmm.....and here I thought that Teh Domah=Msr. Iaidoka. And Obenjo was Niitsu Kakunoshin. Razz

Back on track, I always thought Katsuyori=George Custer and Shingen=Otho from Beetlejuice.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Shingen=Otho from Beetlejuice.


Now that has photoshop potential.
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