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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Domer/Ledbetter = Tony Bryant?


Hmmmmm.....and here I thought that Teh Domah=Msr. Iaidoka. And Obenjo was Niitsu Kakunoshin. Razz

Back on track, I always thought Katsuyori=George Custer and Shingen=Otho from Beetlejuice.


Tatsunoshi, that is awesome.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:


Tatsunoshi, that is awesome.

平和


Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Domer/Ledbetter = Tony Bryant?


Hmmmmm.....and here I thought that Teh Domah=Msr. Iaidoka. And Obenjo was Niitsu Kakunoshin. Razz

Back on track, I always thought Katsuyori=George Custer and Shingen=Otho from Beetlejuice.


So Ledbetter is Domer who are both hacks like Tony.

I'm so confused. At least I didn't insult his work.

Who ever who is? Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Katsuyori=George Custer. Simply brilliant! Works well for me. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Katsuyori=George Custer. Simply brilliant! Works well for me. Laughing


That's actually NOT a bad analogy, at all. Well known, highly thought of, but ambitious and too full of himself to be cautious. Hmm. *looks for way to work that into his paper*
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
owari no utsuke wrote:
Katsuyori=George Custer. Simply brilliant! Works well for me. Laughing


That's actually NOT a bad analogy, at all. Well known, highly thought of, but ambitious and too full of himself to be cautious. Hmm. *looks for way to work that into his paper*


Tatsunoshi gets credit for that. I thought it was a beautiful analogy. In a paper, SWEET! Very Happy

The Katsuyori before and after Nagashino is sure interesting. He had everything going for him. His father's generals, taking Takatenjin Castle, and then everything went down the toilet at the Battle of Nagashino. His aggressive nature just went too far.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Custer's last known words were suppposedly "Looks like we've got 'em on the run, boys!" Oh, how wrong he was.

A long time ago, Custer and the Little Bighorn was the subject of my first serious foray into military history research. Custer and the myth (along with teppanyaki) was something of an obsession I had since childhood. A lot of the research I did more than 20 years ago is still fairly vivid in my head.

At the Little Bighorn, like Nagashino, both losers attacked larger forces on terrain that was better known by the victors. But the battles were tactically very different. At the Little Bighorn, Custer attacked a vast camp containing approximately 2,000 to 3,000 Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho braves with a regiment of about 600 troopers. The Native Americans were not expecting to engage Custer there and at that time-- Custer had the element of tactical surprise. Already greatly outnumbered, he split his command in three prongs in a "brilliantly" stupid idea to encircle the camp that was bigger than he and his Crow scouts realized. After he split his forces, his direct command was something like 211 or 212 men and we know very well what happened to them. His command, armed with single shot model 1873 Springfield carbines (also prone to overheating) were no match for the Sioux and Cheyenne, who were better armed with repeater type Winchester and Henry rifles. So not only was Custer out-manned, he was vastly out-gunned. A fire that burnt away most of the grass on the battlefield in the mid 80s allowed forensic scientists to take a closer look at what really happened there. The pattern of spent cases and bullets that they found told the story very clearly.

Katsuyori's last known words are unknown, because there was really not a lot of people left around him when he offed himself after a long decline following the battle of Nagashino. Custer made a name for himself by frankly being a quite reckless, if dashing, cavalry commander and was made a brevet brigadier general at a very young age (23 I think)-- the youngest general ever in the history of the US Army. He eventually reached the rank of brevet major general. Not bad for a guy who graduated last in his West Point class. After the Civil War and the cutbacks, his rank was adjusted to Lt-Col and was always never too far from the limelight in the campaigns against the Native Americans on the Great Plains.

I am not sure we can argue that Katsuyori was reckless prior to Nagashino. Sure, we can compare Katsuyori to Custer in that both had something to prove and both wanted glory. Katsuyori was always trying to get out of the shadow of daddy. Custer liked publicity. Custer's main strategies were "charge at the sound of the guns" or "surprise sleeping villages". Apart from Nagashino, I am not sure if Katsuyori really had a strategy of "charge at the sound of the guns". Overall, he doesn't appear to be as rash and Custer unless you believe what you saw in Kurosawa's Kagemusha.

Domer, if you want some good recommendations for further reading about Custer let me know. I can rattle off some books from memory if needed and actually have two or three on the shelf here in Japan.
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My opinion both Custer and Katsuyori were overconfident. Agree? One was killed in battle and the other one survived, but was never the same person again. It must have that Sakuma letter. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Custer's last known words were suppposedly "Looks like we've got 'em on the run, boys!" Oh, how wrong he was.

A long time ago, Custer and the Little Bighorn was the subject of my first serious foray into military history research. Custer and the myth (along with teppanyaki) was something of an obsession I had since childhood. A lot of the research I did more than 20 years ago is still fairly vivid in my head.

At the Little Bighorn, like Nagashino, both losers attacked larger forces on terrain that was better known by the victors. But the battles were tactically very different. At the Little Bighorn, Custer attacked a vast camp containing approximately 2,000 to 3,000 Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho braves with a regiment of about 600 troopers. The Native Americans were not expecting to engage Custer there and at that time-- Custer had the element of tactical surprise. Already greatly outnumbered, he split his command in three prongs in a "brilliantly" stupid idea to encircle the camp that was bigger than he and his Crow scouts realized. After he split his forces, his direct command was something like 211 or 212 men and we know very well what happened to them. His command, armed with single shot model 1873 Springfield carbines (also prone to overheating) were no match for the Sioux and Cheyenne, who were better armed with repeater type Winchester and Henry rifles. So not only was Custer out-manned, he was vastly out-gunned. A fire that burnt away most of the grass on the battlefield in the mid 80s allowed forensic scientists to take a closer look at what really happened there. The pattern of spent cases and bullets that they found told the story very clearly.

Katsuyori's last known words are unknown, because there was really not a lot of people left around him when he offed himself after a long decline following the battle of Nagashino. Custer made a name for himself by frankly being a quite reckless, if dashing, cavalry commander and was made a brevet brigadier general at a very young age (23 I think)-- the youngest general ever in the history of the US Army. He eventually reached the rank of brevet major general. Not bad for a guy who graduated last in his West Point class. After the Civil War and the cutbacks, his rank was adjusted to Lt-Col and was always never too far from the limelight in the campaigns against the Native Americans on the Great Plains.

I am not sure we can argue that Katsuyori was reckless prior to Nagashino. Sure, we can compare Katsuyori to Custer in that both had something to prove and both wanted glory. Katsuyori was always trying to get out of the shadow of daddy. Custer liked publicity. Custer's main strategies were "charge at the sound of the guns" or "surprise sleeping villages". Apart from Nagashino, I am not sure if Katsuyori really had a strategy of "charge at the sound of the guns". Overall, he doesn't appear to be as rash and Custer unless you believe what you saw in Kurosawa's Kagemusha.

Domer, if you want some good recommendations for further reading about Custer let me know. I can rattle off some books from memory if needed and actually have two or three on the shelf here in Japan.


Not bad at all! But what can you tell us about Otho?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Otho Fenlock, a psychic in Beetlejuice. John

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otho says:
The interior design of Katsuyori's bedroom is just a horrid fanboy's wet dream! Ooogh! I told him to take down those posters of Princess Leia dressed as Jabba's slave girl, but he just doesn't listen. He doesn't respect me and insists on doing things his way!

Oh, and you know, Kōsaka Masanobu is just so handy with power tools! Mmmmm! He's just built me a nice little tea house where we can sip tea and play house!

And who is this Tornadoes guy? I think he is just some phantom that keeps haunting cyberspace with stuff about Japan! I think he may be an alter ego for the Shogun. Scary!
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:

Otho says:
The interior design of Katsuyori's bedroom is just a horrid fanboy's wet dream! Ooogh! I told him to take down those posters of Princess Leia dressed as Jabba's slave girl, but he just doesn't listen. He doesn't respect me and insists on doing things his way!

Oh, and you know, Kōsaka Masanobu is just so handy with power tools! Mmmmm! He's just built me a nice little tea house where we can sip tea and play house!

And who is this Tornadoes guy? I think he is just some phantom that keeps haunting cyberspace with stuff about Japan! I think he may be an alter ego for the Shogun. Scary!


Mr. Green Hail to the Shogun Right On Woooo!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few months ago I bought a book on the Battle of Mikata ga hara by Owada Tetsuo. It was published in 1989 by Gakken and does have a more recent edition as well. Unfortunately, the newer publication is only a pocket-sized and the older one is full of photos, maps, battle formations, and the KIA on both sides.

In the older publication, Owada states that Shingen died of sickness and his son Yoshinobu took his own life at Tokoji. Owada stated that Yoshinobu died of sickness was false.

The book also goes into great detail the relationships that Shingen had with the Hojo and the Imagawa. The Battle of Mimasetoge is briefly discussed as well as his invasion of Suruga.

I am lucky to have both publications and in my opinion, the older one is a lot better.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:


In the older publication, Owada states that Shingen died of sickness and his son Yoshinobu took his own life at Tokoji. Owada stated that Yoshinobu died of sickness was false.


I thought this was common knowledge.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am with you on that. The first publication was in 1989. My guess is that Owada Tetsuo wanted to the reader know that the other people who believed Yoshinobu died of sickness was a myth.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Out of the seventy-seven main personal who fought for Shingen at Mikata ga hara, only five were KIA.

From Owada Tetsuo's Mikata ga hara no Tatakai (pp. 214-215). From the 1989 publication.

Ofuji Takanao, Komiyama Tango no Kami Masatomo, Takagi Zenuemon, Takada Kojiro Moriyori, and Nukui Genpachi. Wounded was Obata Matahachiro Masasada.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Having just reread the final half of chapter 2 of Japonius Tyrannus, I'm actually quite convinced that Nagashino was really not that important in the Fall of the Takeda, fighting for seven years after a supposedly decisive battle doesn't really make sense, especially since even in 1582 Katsuyori still controlled parts of Totomi and Kozuke along with Shinano and Kai. Which makes sense, half of the problem of Nagashino was that Katsuyori had left most of his army in the north, incdentally it meant he got a bloody nose rather than a fatal blow.

What seems decisive is the alienation of Takeda and the Hojo, which allowed for the truly decisive 1582 campaign where Katsuyori faced the two most powerful clans in Japan practically alone, after nearly a decade of indecive warfare, seeing no hope of victory his vassals melted away.

If that's true then the fall of the Takeda lies in the cause of that break with the Hojo, which was about Katsuyori's backing of Uesugi Kagekatsu in the post-Kenshin sucession struggle.

Which means that Takeda Shingen's life's work was doomed as by the death of his greatest rival......irony or something.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This would not be necro posting since it is a sticky right?

I wondered why is it that Shingen failed to secure a total victory in his biggest battles? At 4th Kawanakajima he routed the Uesugi, but failed to pursue them and gain total victory. At Mikata ga Hara he did not take Hamamatsu castle, so Ieyasu got away, and he got attack afterwards in a night attack so he lost more men. At Uedahara he also lost. So why was it Shingen failed to gain that total victory mny others took; Okehazama, Nagashino, Shizugatake and Sekigahara to name some.

I am very interested in Shingen and would really like it if this thread got popular again. Very Happy .

Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This sounds like a job for
Ltdomer!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
This sounds like a job for
Ltdomer!


That's what I was thinking too.

I did think it was debatable who was victorious at Kawanakajima #4. Although Shingen probably technically was the victor since he eventually was able to inflict heavy losses on Kenshin and forced the Uesugi to withdraw, I don't know that I would say that Kenshin's forces were routed. The Takeda suffered heavy losses as well and it was touch and go for a while and they also lost some of there commanders. So the reason he could not secure total victory against the Uesugi was due to his own forces heavy losses.

With Mikatagahara, Ieyasu was able to retreat back to Hamamatsu which would have required Shingen to lay siege. Maybe he did not feel it wise to remain at Hamamatsu for a prolonged siege fearing possible reinforcements from Nobunaga.

I'm sure Domer will have some good answers though.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes, in a war game scenario, it would a slight win for the Uesugi at Kawanakajima. Nobushige, Morozumi, and Yamamoto Kansuke was KIA. Second, Shingen could not advance through the Kawanakajima Plain since Kenshin always kept him in check. Both sides suffered, but Shingen took the biggest hit.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Tornadoes, in a war game scenario, it would a slight win for the Uesugi at Kawanakajima. Nobushige, Morozumi, and Yamamoto Kansuke was KIA. Second, Shingen could not advance through the Kawanakajima Plain since Kenshin always kept him in check. Both sides suffered, but Shingen took the biggest hit.


That has been my feeling as well. Once Kosaka came down the mountain and eventually punched through the 3000 Uesugi defending the ford, the main Useugi force decided to withdraw rather than risk defeat through an attack on there flank. It was a wise withdrawal by the Uesugi after they had dealt such a vicious blow to Shingen's army.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shingen had been a fairly agressive and reckless commander up until the time of Uedahara. After losing Itagaki (and the battle), he became far more cautious and unwilling to put his men at risk needlessly. The Takeda weren't the largest army around and were surrounded by potential threats, so this probably wasn't a bad idea (it also helped to strenghten the bonds between Shingen and his retainers/soldiers)-but it likely did keep him from exploiting situations such as the aftermath of Migatagahara.

As to Kawanakajima, the prevailing view of the battle currently is that the Uesugi came down from Saijo-san fully intending to return to Echigo-after all, their baggage train had already been sent on ahead. The attack on Shingen's troops on the plain was planned as a short diversion to discourage pursuit from that angle, and the famous 'water wheel' formation is more accurately seen as Kenshin's troops peeling from the queue to make a quick strike at the Takeda before heading north again. When the assaults met with unexpected levels of success, they stuck around to push the advantage but when Shingen's strike force arrived, they simply proceeded to follow their initial plan. The Uesugi certainly weren't routed by the Takeda-while Shingen held the battlefield, casualties were similar (not to mention overstated in most sources) and the cost in commanders during the battle is thought by many to have seriously curtailed his later campaigns (especially the loss of his brother). It hurt the Takeda far more than the Uesugi.

Shingen's later strategies always had the Uesugi as the boogeymen lurking in the background. Pretty much any campaign he mounted against the Tokugawa or Hojo ended with Shingen becoming obsessed with what Kenshin might be up to and returning to Kai-even with crushing the Tokugawa at Migatagahara (and they wouldn't have needed to siege the castle-they could have easily swept right in) and destroying the castle town of Odawara. Shingen's natural caution and his respect for/paranoia of the Uesugi kept him from overtly bold strokes such as the one that happened at Okehazama (which amounted to a suicide attack).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you guys, with all that you have, I can't wait for ltdomer Wink.

I thought the force under Amakasu Kagemochi that held Kosaka Masanobu was at 1,000 men not 3,000?

Anyways, it is interesting to think of, where would Shingen have been if he had taken both Odawara and Hamamatsu? Taking Odawara castle and Sagami province would also give him the opportunity to take the half island called Izu or Ise (I have seen both). And taking Hamamatsu and Totomi would give him the chance to take Mikawa, Totomi and eventually Owari provinces. And after that; Kyoto!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've read some places that there were 3,000 Uesugi at the ford but I think I may have also heard 1,000 as well. Numbers are often exaggerated too so it could be closer to 1,000.
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