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Time in Japan: When? or, What's in a Date?
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Carmen

Thank you for your response. If anyone has any questions about Cocks, now is the time to ask, because I am not planning to scan or copy the 700 pages.

I found your quote in the Diary.

I don't know the details of the Summer Campaign, but the final battle was on 5/7, Gregorian June 3, 1615 so it would make sense for Sen-hime (and Naa?) to have been taken to Hidetada the next day on June 4 and the campaign to have ended on the 5th. I don't know what event October 10, 1615 is supposed to refer to.

Cocks's entry of October 18, 1616 (Julian) is October 28, 1616 Gregorian, since the Gregorian calendar skipped 10 days. But this is over a year after the end of the Summer Campaign. But there is time for Naa to have become well-established there.

By the way, the original has "it is a sanctuary and no justis may take her out." I wonder if the meaning of the last sentence is rather "no law or administrative authority may take her out;" that rather than a matter of justice/injustice (right/wrong) it is a matter of legal/illegal. I think in Europe being in sanctuary gave you legal protection.

I have only had one day of sightseeing in Kamakura, many years ago, and I was showing my 87-year old grandmother around, so I was not able to go many places. (In fact, I left her by herself in front of Kamakura Station while my aunt and I went to look for Yoritomo's tomb, which we found by noting all the school tour groups coming towards us. She enjoyed watching the people while waiting. But she did have trouble with the Japanese-style non-flush toiletts.) You must really enjoy living, or having lived, there. Cocks says, "I did never see such pleasant walkes amongst pyne and spruce trees as are about these pagods."
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe I had better explain the differences between the English and the continental calendar (though it would not be the whole continent) a little more systematically.

Between 1582 and 1752 there were two differences.

One was, when did the year count increase? Apparently most countries took over the Roman calendar and started in January, but some changed it to a different date. England traditionally (from the 12th century?) started counting from March 25. I suppose it is rather like Japan's "nendo" 年度, the buisiness, financial, school, etc. year, which usually starts on Apr. 1, though some companies use a different date. So New Years Day this year was Jan. 1, 2011, but it was still in the 2010 Nendo. I find it confusing in practice sometimes. So in Cocks' time, he changed his year date almost 3 months after the others.

The other, separate, difference was whether the Gregorian or the Julian calendar was being used. Here there was a constant difference of 10 days until 1700, when it increased to 11.

So, some representative corresponding dates are (English followed by Gregorian):

July 1, 1615    July 11, 1615
October 5, 1615,  October 15, 1615
December 21, 1615   January 1, 1616
January 1, 1615   January 11, 1616
March 1, 1615   March 11, 1616
March 25, 1616   April 4, 1616
October 18, 1616   October 28, 1616
December 21, 1616   January 1, 1617
January 1, 1616   January 11, 1617
April 1, 1617   April 11, 1617
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Carmen

Thank you for your response. If anyone has any questions about Cocks, now is the time to ask, because I am not planning to scan or copy the 700 pages.

I found your quote in the Diary.

I don't know the details of the Summer Campaign, but the final battle was on 5/7, Gregorian June 3, 1615 so it would make sense for Sen-hime (and Naa?) to have been taken to Hidetada the next day on June 4 and the campaign to have ended on the 5th. I don't know what event October 10, 1615 is supposed to refer to.

Cocks's entry of October 18, 1616 (Julian) is October 28, 1616 Gregorian, since the Gregorian calendar skipped 10 days. But this is over a year after the end of the Summer Campaign. But there is time for Naa to have become well-established there.

By the way, the original has "it is a sanctuary and no justis may take her out." I wonder if the meaning of the last sentence is rather "no law or administrative authority may take her out;" that rather than a matter of justice/injustice (right/wrong) it is a matter of legal/illegal. I think in Europe being in sanctuary gave you legal protection.

I have only had one day of sightseeing in Kamakura, many years ago, and I was showing my 87-year old grandmother around, so I was not able to go many places. (In fact, I left her by herself in front of Kamakura Station while my aunt and I went to look for Yoritomo's tomb, which we found by noting all the school tour groups coming towards us. She enjoyed watching the people while waiting. But she did have trouble with the Japanese-style non-flush toiletts.) You must really enjoy living, or having lived, there. Cocks says, "I did never see such pleasant walkes amongst pyne and spruce trees as are about these pagods."


Good. Then Oct. 28, 1616 is the date. I could say a lot more about Cock's Diary and what he and Adams said about the nuns at Tokeiji being free to have lovers visit, but I'll just say that it has to be hearsay. It was common knowledge at that time that there were women who dressed as nuns who traveled on the Tokaido Road, but were prostitutes. Anyway, Cocks got it wrong, and we all know there were discrepancies in the diaries of the Westerners in Sengoku.

By the way, I still consider Kamakura my home in Japan, even though I live in the States now. I've been connected to Kamakura most of my life, first through relatives who lived there, my numerous visits, a job teaching there and finally living in Kita Kamakura. It's the best place in Kanto, in my mind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I couldn't find anything Adams said about Tokeiji or anything about Tokeiji in Cocks's diary except the Oct. 18 passage. Is there? What you said sounds like it might a very free interpretation of a passing phrase in the diary: At present [Kamakura ] is no cittie, but scattared howses …wherin are divers pagods very sumptuouse and a nunry (or rather a stews) of shaven women. ([side note] the little doughter of Fidaia Samma…. no justis may take her out.) I never did see such pleasant walkes…

When I read that, my impression is that he is not saying that Tokeiji in particular is a stews, but that he assumes nunries in general are stews.

By the way, I found several places where Cocks uses "justis" to mean a law-court official, I suppose like the term in "justice of the peace." For example, "her frendes came to me.. to speake to the justis for her" (April 4 following January 1, 1615), "I wished them to defer the [quarrel] till we came to Miaco, and then we would bring it to pass before the justis theare (March 23 (Ninguach 22) following January 1, 162 1/2)"
or the privileges granted by the Shogun (letter Jan. 16, 1616) : any disagreement among the English should be settled by the ship captain or the cape (chief) merchant, "without that any other justice in Japon shall tuch them or meddell in the matter." So he must be saying no official can take her out of Tokeiji.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found one book that states that Tokeiji was a brothel and another that states "any men could come in, including lovers."

1) Sachiko Merrill quotes in Zen Sanctuary of Purple Robes, Cocks and Will Adams. . . were passing through Kamakura on their return to Hirado. Cocks's diary continues his account of what he observed: "pagods," a "nvnry (or rather a stews [i.e., a brothel]) of shaven women [the Tokeiji]. . .

Merrill goes on to write "A recently published Cocks letter is even less flattering of Tokeiji":

. . . The Emperor nor no man may take away any woman out of
that place by force, yet are they at liberty to take any man that
Cometh into there Company, yf they please, for they hould venery
nether Syn nor shame, but live at pleasure. (pg.78)

Merrill's book is meticulously put together, but I found the same thing in Giles Milton's "historical narrative' Samurai William: The Adventurer Who Unlocked Japan, which might not be as reliable, but has almost the same quote as above.

Yet men, and even lovers, were free to come and go as they
pleased, for the nuns "hold venery nether sin nor shame,
but live for their pleasure. (pg 195-6)

Of course, I think these were mistaken ideas about the nuns at Tokeiji. Things that Cocks and Adams imagined. My understanding was that only workmen could come in. Though priests from Engakuji may have gone, I don't know for sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Virtually all temples, monasteries, and nunneries allowed visitors-for that matter, most of them were popular accommodations for travelers as well so you'd have complete strangers on the grounds at times. Brothers, parents, children, relatives would have had no problems getting in for visits, although in theory many areas would be off-limits. I don't doubt Tokeiji would have had more than their share as a run in temple-many of the women who fled there did so just to escape a bad relationship and intended to rejoin the real world at some point. They would have had visitors from their families and perhaps even accepted their husbands as visitors if they wanted to discuss a reconciliation. No doubt a few lovers would be in the mix as well. I doubt that Tokeiji would have had any real prostitution going on, especially during Naahime's time, as it would have been watched closely by the Bakufu for Toyotomi remnants (and later would be under close scrutiny due to its status as a run-in temple).

Prostitution certainly went on in some temples, monasteries, and nunneries. Town magistrates had no authority over temples (one reason why there could be run-in temples in the first place), and abbot positions could be bought. Lots of ambitious moneylenders bought abbotships and took advantage of this relative autonomy-and where moneylending/loansharking is involved, prostitution and gambling aren't far behind (which usually took place on the temple grounds). Some temples became little versions of Yoshiwara. This isn't to say it was common, but they were definitely out there.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For quoting, one firm quote with a source is worth a dozen others, and Merrill's seem reliable. I didn't know there were recent Cocks' letters. I have the diary published in 1883 version.
Of course, whether Cocks was correct or not is a different matter. I suppose one has to balance partly by asked what the standards were in monasteries of the time. Of course, most of the women did not enter Tokeiji out of attraction for monastic life. But you would think that for safety's sake especially there they would have to be more careful than in many temples. I also wonder if the Tokugawa would have let Naa go there if she would be allowed to meet men freely. But I really don't know anything about Japanese monastic life.

If one can judge a book by its title, the author of Samurai William: The Adventurer Who Unlocked Japan must be an ignoramus, or expect his readers to be. How can one by any stretch of the imagination describe the Japan of 1600 as "locked" ?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I haven't read the book, and I totally agree with you that it's a shitty title. Hell, I would even argue that Japan wasn't "locked" or "closed" when Perry came.

But, just to play devil's advocate, maybe it could be alright if he means something like "unlocked the mystery of Japan for Brits", i.e. was among the first ones to provide for Britain a peek into what Japan was really like, beyond what rumors and legends they heard inspired by Marco Polo's writings...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
If one can judge a book by its title, the author of Samurai William: The Adventurer Who Unlocked Japan must be an ignoramus, or expect his readers to be.


Doubly so since Adams never held samurai status. I've read the book and it's pretty crappy pop culture history with a lot of errors. The one that sticks in my mind is him referring to Adams as a 'hamamoto', although 'hamataro' would have been funnier.

The title for the US version was changed to "Samurai William: The Adventurer Who OPENED Japan", which is even worse. There are a lot of books in this vein-"The Dutch Discovery of Japan" comes to mind.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe I had better bring this thread back to Cocks's dates and see if people really understand them now.

Q9 Above I mentioned three of the times Cocks used the word "justis" or "justice." If you wanted to look up the dates in a standard Western-Japanese date table or converter, what dates would you use for the western dates? For a bonus, what are the Japanese dates?
A. In his diary, on the April 4 following January 1, 1615
B. In his diary on the March 23 (Ninguach 22) following January 1, 162 1/2. (162 1/2 means that it was 1621 by one calendar and 1622 by the other.)
C. In a letter dated Jan. 16, 1616.

I am pretty sure Tatsunoshi understands, so maybe he should let others try.

For the converter, most people on this forum use Nengo Calc, and there is a discussion about it at
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Japanese_calendar#Calculation_Website

If anyone has any questions about converters, this might be a good time to ask, whether or not you answer the questions about Cocks.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Maybe I had better bring this thread back to Cocks's dates and see if people really understand them now.

Q9 Above I mentioned three of the times Cocks used the word "justis" or "justice." If you wanted to look up the dates in a standard Western-Japanese date table or converter, what dates would you use for the western dates? For a bonus, what are the Japanese dates?
A. In his diary, on the April 4 following January 1, 1615
B. In his diary on the March 23 (Ninguach 22) following January 1, 162 1/2. (162 1/2 means that it was 1621 by one calendar and 1622 by the other.)
C. In a letter dated Jan. 16, 1616.



Let me try just C. In a letter dated January 16, 1616.

Without the converter, "In the present Japanese modern lunar calendar, New Years Day is between about Jan. 21 and Feb. 19. This means dates towards the end of the Japanese year are in the next year of the Western calendar.

If Cocks is writing in the Julian and we want the Gregorian, 1/16/1616
would be 10 days later, on 1/26 and because the New Year’s Day began after
Jan. 21st:

C. would be: January 26, 1617.

If that is true:

A. April 14, 1616
B. April 3, 1622
C. Jan. 26, 1617
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Carmen,

You are right that by this time we need the Gregorian dates for converters, so we need to add ten days to Cocks's dates. So you have the right idea about the month-day dates, but you were careless about one of them.

Now the trickier part, or at least the part we simply are not used to, the English (March 25) vs. continental (Jan. 1) start of the year. (This is not the same as Julian vs. Gregorian, because even earlier they used the Julian year starting with January on (part of the) continent.) I am not sure how well you understood it, since it has nothing to to with the start of the Japanese year. Try some more.

Find the Gregorian date for the following:
letters:
D. 1614, July the 25th
E. le 1th (sic) of October, 1617
F. the 31st of December, 1622
G. the 15th of February, 1617
H. January the 3rd, 1613
I. February 21, 1615

Diary: after "January 1, 1616-7"
J. January 6
K. Marche 28
L. July 2
M. October 28
N. December 23

By the way, the standard Julian calendar used by historians, etc. starts in January, not on March 25, so January is what is used for the start of Julian years in things like the NASA dates for new moons, calendar converters, and general historical dates. I don't know what historians do about English history in particular though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Things have been very quiet lately. I don't know if the calendar will liven things up or deaden things more, but anyway here it is.


Above, I mentioned some differences between some Japanese calendars, but what about differences between the Chinese and Japanese calendars? First, there were many different procedures used over the centuries in China, and nine used in Japan. We usually say that Japan used the Chinese calendar, but Japan never used the calendars calculated by the Chinese Astronomical Bureau. Rather the rekido 暦道 calculated the calendars using Chinese procedures, but hardly ever the current procedure. After 1685 the shogunate tenmonkata 天文方 used procedures localized for contemporary Japan. So in what ways could two Chinese-type calendars be different, and concretely what were some differences between the Chinese and Japanese dates at different periods?

The Chinese calendar converter I use is
http://sinocal.sinica.edu.tw/
I highly recommend that when you use this converter you search from the Western calendar, even if you have to estimate. (Put in the Y-M-D in the bottom row and click on the 執行 in the second row from the bottom.) You get a Western calendar month with the Chinese dates entered for each day.

Of course, until modern times there was normally no need to coordinate dates closely. But let us look at 1274 and 1281.

Q10 Why did I pick these two dates?

Q11 Below are the dates of the starts of the months for Japan and China for 1274. Where are they different? Any general comments?


J C
1  2/9  2/9
2  3/10  3/10
3  4/9  4/9
4  5/8   5/8
5  6/6   6/6
6  7/5   7/6
7  8/4  8/4
8  9/2  9/2
9  10/2  10/2
10  10/31   10/31
11  11/30   11/30
12  12/30   12/30

Q12 Below are the dates of the starts of the months for Japan and China for 1281. For practice, fill in the dates of the Chinese month starts. Mark where the two are different.? Any general comments?

1281
J C
1  1/22  1/22
2  2/20  2/20
3  3/22   3/21
4  4/20
5  5/20
6  6/18   6/18
7  7/17   7/17
i7  8/16
8  9/15
9  10/14  10/14
10  11/13  11/13
11  12/13
12  1/12  
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Q11: I would assume that the timing event of the first day of the 6th month in 1274 was between 11pm and midnight in Japan, putting it between midnight and 1am in China, as China is an hour past Japan, depending on where you are observing from (e.g. Beijing/Dadu/Khanbalik, depending on what you want to call it, or Nanjing in the south, or various other points further west--that only increases the issues in observing the same celestial phenomena). I'm forgetting the exact phenomenon and feeling to lazy to go back through and search--assuming I'm on the right track, I'll leave that to someone else.

Q12:
J C
1  1/22 1/22
2  2/20 2/20
3  3/22 3/21**
4  4/20 4/20
5  5/20 5/19**
6  6/18 6/18
7  7/17 7/17
i7  8/16 XXX**
8  9/15 8/16**
i8 XXX 9/14**
9  10/14 10/14
10  11/13 11/13
11  12/13 12/13
12  1/12 1/11**

1281 is much further off, though you still would be mostly okay.

Again, I partly blame observation of celestial phenomena; it could be that a certain thing that was expected was or wasn't viewed at a given time. As for the different intercalary months--although they start on the same day, as I recall those are dictated by solar calendar events, so it is possible, again, that in Japan they didn't observe the necessary event marking the end of one of the phases of the solar cycle, and thus started i7, while China, observing the same point in the sky one hour later, would have come to a different conclusion. It is also possible that calculations were off and they didn't observe anything that led them to believe a correction was needed.

As for the other variances... it looks like China's scholars are generally starting *earlier* than Japan's. This makes me wonder if they changed calculation methods; the S. Song dynasty had ended in 1279 (and you didn't mention if these were Yuan or S. Song dates; though 1281 has to be Yuan, does it not?) and it is possible that the Yuan had a slightly different method of calculation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q10 Why did I pick these two dates?


Those were the years of the Mongol Invsions of Japan, and presumably would be a case where coordinating Chinese (and Korean)/Japanese dates might become an issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q10 Why did I pick these two dates?
Tatsunoshi: Those were the years of the Mongol Invsions of Japan, and presumably would be a case where coordinating Chinese (and Korean)/Japanese dates might become an issue.

Yes. From a calendrical point of view they were random, but since they were interesting, I decided to go ahead and use them.

Q11 What dates does Conlan use in In Little Need of Divine Intention? What about the three writers on Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea? (I don't know the answer to this.) Do they switch everything to Julian dates?

Josh, you got the differences.
The main point of this thread is to point out where there may be differences and what you have to think about when you use dates, not to explain them, but I will try to give at least a sketch, though I don't know much detail about the Chinese dates.

First, one of the most important things to grasp about the Chinese calendar is that from the Warring States Period, calendars have been calculated using procedures, not observations, though observations were used to create new procedures. So they were calculated in advance. ( I did not realize this until I seriously started working on the calendars.) The time of the new moon has been correctly estimated to within about half a day since at least the 4th cent. BC, so different calendars normally do not differ by more than a day in the start of the month, although the start was often moved by a day, or exceptionally by two days. Of course even the slightest difference in the time of the new moon can change the start of the day.

So the start of the month depends on the location the procedure is calculated on, the accuracy of the procedure, the accuracy of your calculations for any particular year and month, and traditions. Japan used Tang-period calendars from about 700 to 1684, so the calendars were based on -- guess where!--Chôan 長安 time (you must have had a wonderful time there, Josh) , from 1685, on Kyoto time. The Chinese changed their calendar procedures often, so they were usually based on the current capital. Another custom, which Chinese used for about 6 centuries before 1281 and Japan about 8 centuries before 1685, was to put off the first day of the month (進朔) if the new moon was "late" in the day, late eventually being established as after 6:00 pm by the modern clock. So Josh was right that the Chinese changed their calculation methods between the two dates. The1281 授時暦 Juji calendar is considered the height of Chinese calendrical activity.

When I look at the NASA site
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html
it seem that that 進朔 or not would account for the later 3 differences in the new moon in 1281. I don't know why the Chinese have March 21 in 1281. It seems it should be the 20th. For the difference in 1274, it may be that the Chinese time was a little late.

Of course another wrinkle for 1274 is that I don't know if the tables for the Chinese calendar use the Sung or the Mongol (or 金) calendar for that year, or if they are the same. If you were really working with documents you would try to find dates of that month giving the cyclic day--then you would really know.

As far as difference in the intercalary months goes, 1281 was the third year after the start of the Metonic cycle on 1278/11/1, so the Japanese made the month after the 7th month the i7 month instead of the 8th month as I mentioned above in this thread. Usually they did it by moving the starts of the months around, but this year unusually they moved the solar term (節気). I will talk more about this when I get into intercalary months someday. By the way, when Lamers and Elisonas talk about the calendar, do they point out that the dates on almost all of the charts of the solar terms (such as that on the Sengoku Daimyo page) are post-1844? For before that the charts give a general idea, but can be several days off, depending on the term and the period.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
By the way, when Lamers and Elisonas talk about the calendar, do they point out that the dates on almost all of the charts of the solar terms (such as that on the Sengoku Daimyo page) are post-1844? For before that the charts give a general idea, but can be several days off, depending on the term and the period.


They use "Japanese Chronological Tables from 601 to 1872 AD" by Paul Yachita Tsuchihashi SJ (Tokyo: Sophia University Press, 1952). They don't go into the solar charts/post 1844 aspect. Where are those on Tony's page? I couldn't find them.

Not sure what dates and methods Conlan, Turnbull, Hawley, or Swope use but I'll have a look later. I'm pretty sure Swope uses the straight-up Chinese calendar for his, and Conlan uses Japanese dates.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turnbull, in Samurai Invasion, uses both Western dates and lunar dates-sometimes together, sometimes separately. In The Samurai Invasion of Korea, he uses Western dates. He doesn't say what he used to get the Western dates in either case.

Hawley uses Western dates, but explains over two pages that he arrived at them by using a standard Sino-Western date conversion book for dates in Korean and Chinese documents and the same book Lamers used for Japanese documents. Hawley gives the original lunar dates for sources in his endnotes.

Swope uses Western dates, and arrived at them all (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) through use of a Sino-Western convertor. He seems to be clueless that the Japanese lunar calendar was slightly different, not surprising given his overall lack of knowledge when it comes to Japanese history. Since he used almost no Japanese sources and mostly English language translations, he probably just used the dates listed in them.

Conlan uses the original Japanese lunar dates throughout, although he does give the Western year along with the Japanese nengo. Her doesn't state specifically if he gives the years in Julian or Gregorian retrofits (which could be different if they fall on the last few days of the year), but given his thoroughness and devotion to putting things in their proper timeframe they're almost certainly Julian years. Since the book mainly dealt with the Mongol Invasion Scrolls, he didn't touch on any Chinese/Korean documents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So, one more thing for Tony to correct on his page. FYI, it is here: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/calendar.html

There is that and the "30 days/month" myth... at least.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was wondering how Lamers and Elisonas described the solar terms in their lengthy explanation of the lunar/Julian calendars. For the period of the Shinchokoki, there is virtually no doubt as to the Japanese calendar. NengoCalc uses Tsuchihashi's tables, though he checks them with a more recent German one also.

Tatsu wrote:
Turnbull, in Samurai Invasion, uses both Western dates and lunar dates-sometimes together, sometimes separately.


I assume those are Japanese lunar dates.

Hawley seems to have done the best on the dates. This is one case when I can really approve of using Western dates. Trying to separate out Chinese and Japanese dates for a Western reader who is not to sure what either is certainly would be a distraction. For Swopes, it seems that his English-language sources must have used the Western calendar for Japanese dates, because as I will point out shortly, the two calendars could be more than "slightly off."

Tatsu wrote:
Conlan uses the original Japanese lunar dates throughout, although he does give the Western year along with the Japanese nengo. Her doesn't state specifically if he gives the years in Julian or Gregorian retrofits (which could be different if they fall on the last few days of the year), but given his thoroughness and devotion to putting things in their proper timeframe they're almost certainly Julian years.


I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that if he had a date Bunei 11.17 (J. Dec. 27, 1273 and G Jan. 3, 1274) he would probably use 1273.11.17, rather than 1274.11.17, but if the date were Bunei 11.25 (J. Jan 4, 1274; G Jan 11, 1274) he would use 1274.11.25?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
I assume (in reference to Turnbull) those are Japanese lunar dates.


Most likely, but he doesn't specify and there's no easy way to tell.

Bethetsu wrote:
Hawley seems to have done the best on the dates. This is one case when I can really approve of using Western dates. Trying to separate out Chinese and Japanese dates for a Western reader who is not to sure what either is certainly would be a distraction. For Swopes, it seems that his English-language sources must have used the Western calendar for Japanese dates, because as I will point out shortly, the two calendars could be more than "slightly off."


Swope's book also seems to use the original Chinese lunar dates for the maps, since the dates used on them for the same event don't match the Western dates he gives in the text. However, he fails to point this out or address it.

Bethetsu wrote:
I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that if he had a date Bunei 11.17 (J. Dec. 27, 1273 and G Jan. 3, 1274) he would probably use 1273.11.17, rather than 1274.11.17, but if the date were Bunei 11.25 (J. Jan 4, 1274; G Jan 11, 1274) he would use 1274.11.25?


That's pretty much it in theory, although he would have it formatted Bunei 1.(1273)11.17. He has all the dates listed in an appendix for the documents he used, and it doesn't appear any of them would fall in this gray area.

I'm not quite sure what you're specifically looking for regarding 'solar terms' from the Lamers book. They explain the differences between the Gregorian and Julian calendars, and explain all of their dates are Julian since everything described in the book occurred before October of 1582. They don't really go into the reasons why the new calendar was adopted. They don't specifically delve in whatever pre-1844 discrepancies there might be, although the book does start off with Oda's birth in 1534. As they mention, there are only five dates used by Gyuichi pre-1567 and two of those he gets wrong-I haven't read the text yet so I don't know if any of the five predate 1544.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could you write some of Conlan's full dates that occur in the 12th month (as most 12th-month dates are after Jan. 1)? This is the problem that started me off on this thread. I have not forgotten about it. I have an outline, even if not a time-table.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unfortunately, in the appendix he doesn't list era years. However, I went through the text and found them. Months in parenthesis are years that he determined through clues in the text.

1274.12.2 Bunei 11
[1274].12.7
1280.12.8 Koan 3
1285.12.18 Koan 8 (guard duty in Kyushu orders issued by the glorious Chiba Munetane, although this is the Kyushu branch of the family)
1286.12.30 Koan 9

It looks like Conlan has chosen not to give the actual Julian year these dates fall on, but rather the year that the era year generally is associated with (based on 1285.12.18 and 1286.12.30 which would be 1286 and 1287...the other two fall within the proper Julian year). Interestingly, Nengocalc doesn't have an option for 1286.12.30 Koan 9. It only goes up to the 29th day-so this might be an example where the original writer of the document slipped up or was using a different calendar (or some other such issue).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote: It looks like Conlan has chosen not to give the actual Julian year these dates fall on, but rather the year that the era year generally is associated with
Thank you very much. He agrees with how I think it should be handled. Very Happy I am working on explaining why your way leads into problems.

quote: Nengocalc doesn't have an option for 1286.12.30 Koan 9.

That is the problem of the Nencalc programming somehow. According to it, 1286.12.30 is Jan. 14 (1287), and i12.1 is Jan. 16, so Jan. 15 must be 12.30.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Back to the Chinese calendar:
Since 1685 both China and Japan have used reasonably accurate procedures and not made exceptions, as far as I know, so almost the only difference between the calendars has been due the the time difference between Peking and Kyoto or Tokyo.

Q 12 Under what astronomical circumstances do the months of the two calendars start on different days? (Don't worry here if the month numbers do not match.) In what way are the two calendars different?

Q 13 China joined the international time system in 1928. Since then, under what circumstances have the month starts of the two calendars (the Chinese 農暦 and the Japnese 旧暦) been different in terms of Universal (Greenwich) time? On the average, how often does this happen?

Q 14 When the calendars were calculated from the sun time at Peking (116ºE ) and Kyoto ( 135º45' ), under what circumstances would the the month starts be different in terms of Universal time?

Q15 Using something like http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html pick some months close to the conditions of Q 14 and see if they really work. Of the months I tried, most worked, but not all, so the calendars did not predict always the same times as NASA.

A site which gives the dates of the Japanese lunar calendar (旧暦) even after 1872 is
http://koyomi.vis.ne.jp/directjp.cgi?http://koyomi.vis.ne.jp/kyuureki.htm
Look near the bottom.
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