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Time in Japan: When? or, What's in a Date?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmmm...this is really out of my area of expertise and seems more up Josh's alley, but he doesn't seem to be around. I haven't been able to come up with solid answers, but I'm assuming it has to do with the New Moon occasionally appearing on different days in Kyoto/Edo and China (because of the different locations)?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry, in the middle of moving back to the States and currently painting and reflooring the house before moving the furniture in (staying at a hotel in the meantime).

I'm actually guessing two things:

1) Individual days (off-by-one type errors) between the calendars are likely due to slight variances in the lunar cycle (if the new moon is midnight in Japan, then it is 11pm in Beijing, possibly putting it in different "days" in each place).

2) Extra months could be off for similar reasons, if that one day, up above, changed where the month fell based on the solar calendar, as well as the observation of various celestial phenomena.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Q 12 Under what astronomical circumstances do the months of the two calendars start on different days?
You have the idea Josh, though I would not call it due to variations in the lunar cycle. (Sorry for interfering with you at this busy time!) Singular events like new moons, solar eclipses (which happen only at the new moon) and earthquakes happen all over the world at different clock times. On the other hand, "midnight" happens at different times but the same clock time around the world. At the present, all Japan, including the capital city Tokyo, is one hour ahead of all(!) China, including the capital city Peking. Between 11pm and midnight in Peking, it will be between midnight and 1 am the next day in Japan. So when the new moon is between midnight and 1 am in Japan, the new moons will be on different dates. In GMT (UT) this means between 15:00 and 16:00. When sun time was used, as 1º is four minutes difference, it would become midnight in Japan about 12:03 am JST and midnight in China (at 116º25')about 1:14 am JST. So the new moon would occur on different days between the two times. (between 15:03 and 16:14 GMT).
For example there was a new moon Dec. 1, 2005 at 15:01 GMT. The Chinese 11th month started on 12/1, but the Japanese on 12/2.
However, for older dates you can't always cut it that tight.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So far I have talked about how two Chinese-type calendars can be different in the start of the month; another way they can be different is in the name (number) of the month. As a lunisolar calendar, the name of the month depends on where it is in the solar year. There are two causes for different month names.
1) In ancient China at different times or in different kingdoms, the months could be defined in terms of different solar events. In particular, the winter solstice could be in different months, so all of the months would be different with respect to each other. For example, the Chou (周), at least towards the end, had the winter solstice in the 1st month. However since Han period it has almost always been in the 11th month, and in Japan, always so.

2)But even when the relation between the months and the solar year is in theory the same, calendars can sometimes name the same month differently. As Chinese-type calendars never skip month numbers, once two calendars are in synch, they can get out of synch by their placement of intercalary months. We came across an example of that above.

Q If calendar A has an i3 month, and B has an i6 month in a particular year, list the months of B under the corresponding months of A.

A: 1 2 3 i3 4 5 6 7 8
B: 1 2

Q If the intercalary months are X month off, how many months are named differently?


The solar terms (i.e. the solar year) determine the names of months, and in particular the intercalary months. As Josh mentioned, different dates for the new moon will also affect which month the solar terms are in. Early, Japanese and Chinese intercalary months were normally the same. For example, in 901-909, only one of the 4 intercalary months was different, and just one month off. However, the year length of the Tang-period Japanese calendar used till 1685 was slightly off, and this eventually affected the dates of the solar terms, so by the 16th century the intercalary months in the two calendars were virtually always different. For example, the intercalary months in the 1590's, the period of Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, were these.
_____J C
1591 i1 i3
1593 i9 i11
1596 i7 i8
1599 i3 i4

So in 1593, three of the 13 months were different in the two countries. One presumes historians cannot have ignored this.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q If calendar A has an i3 month, and B has an i6 month in a particular year, list the months of B under the corresponding months of A.


A: 1 2 3 i3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
B: 1 2 3 4 5 6 i6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Bethetsu wrote:
Q If the intercalary months are X month off, how many months are named differently?


x + 1, assuming you simply subtract one intercalary from the other to arrive at x...in the above example, 4.

What exactly determines the placement of an intercalary month? I guess this is something you'll be getting to, but I'm assuming it has to do with the solar terms (those being the 24 points on the Chinese calendar connected to the seasons/astronomy)?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe that the intercalary months are caused because the solar year is divided (I believe into 24 periods) based on different solar/stellar phenomena (I thought they based it on the stars, but I can't recall if it was based on when the stars are on the horizon at sunrise/sunset or if it was based on the sun "entering the sign" of X; as long as you are consistent, either way helps divide up the solar year.

With 12 months, you expect 2 of the 24 points of the solar year to fall into each month, as I recall; more specifcally, you don't want to pass the 4th point of the solar year unless you are in the 2nd month, etc.. If your calendar gets too out of whack, however, and you find yourself with a month that only covers one of the solar events needed, you can add in an intercalary month and get things back on track.

Is that about it? I'm dredging this up from reading on it a few years ago.

I believe there were some restrictions to this, though, weren't there? Such as no i1, and I don't know if they ever did i12. Those restrictions might be specific to different time periods, though.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Q If the intercalary months are X month off, how many months are named differently?

x + 1, assuming you simply subtract one intercalary from the other to arrive at x...in the above example, 4.


Yes, you are right. However, as a mathematician I think it too bad that it does not work when x is 0! Sad

To continue, China changed the definition of the solar terms in 1645; Japan eventually followed suit in 1844. Thus the pattern of differences between the two calendars changed with the period:

Between 1645 and 1684 Japanese intercalary months were 0 to 4 months ahead of Chinese; after that, the Chinese varied from 2 months before to 2 months after. But in the hundred years after 1844, when the difference was due just to the time difference, intercalary months were different only twice (They will be different also in 2012).

Q15 Even when the difference between calendars is just the time difference, it is possible for intercalary months to be very different. Japan had a i2 in 1852. Which was the corresponding Chinese intercalary month?

Josh is right that intercalary months are determined by solar terms. I will talk about it later--but quickly I will say that the month name is decided by the chûki 中気(even-numbered solar term節気) in it, and if there is no chûki it is an intercalary month in principle. (If you cannot wait, look at the article on Japanese Calendar in the SA-wiki.) The current uneven distribution of intercalary months is not principle or a restriction, but a natural result of how the solar terms are defined now. Japan had an i12 in 1889, and before 1844 the distribution was pretty even.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q15 Even when the difference between calendars is just the time difference, it is possible for intercalary months to be very different. Japan had a i2 in 1852. Which was the corresponding Chinese intercalary month?


So far every Gregorian/Chinese calender converter I've used shows just 12 'Chinese lunar' months for 1852, and no intercalary month for anything that could be considered 1852. Even just plugging in month start dates one after another doesn't uncover one-not sure what the problem is.

Of course, that brings up the question-are there sites that just simply list the Chinese lunar calendar? The site you gave a few posts back does this nicely for the Japanese side of things.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I plugged in the numbers: The Chinese had already taken an i8 in 1851, thus pushing their numbering of the months ahead by one for about 6 months.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
I plugged in the numbers: The Chinese had already taken an i8 in 1851, thus pushing their numbering of the months ahead by one for about 6 months.

-Josh
That's it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsu wrote:
So far every Gregorian/Chinese calender converter I've used shows just 12 'Chinese lunar' months for 1852, and no intercalary month for anything that could be considered 1852. Even just plugging in month start dates one after another doesn't uncover one-not sure what the problem is.


JLBadgley wrote:
The Chinese had already taken an i8 in 1851, thus pushing their numbering of the months ahead by one for about 6 months.


Well, I'd say that wraps up the cause of the problem nicely Laughing .
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could have compared the Japanese and Chinese dates of 1852/2, used the information to align month names in the spirit of

A: 1 2 3 i3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
B: 1 2 3 4 5 6 i6 7 8 9 10 11 12

and followed the traces back to the root of the crime in 1851/i8 (9).

1851-52 is very unusual calendrically. The heir to the tenmongata wrote an interesting paper about it in 1850.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So they knew that this was an issue before it even cropped up, which is interesting. I'm not entirely surprised, but I imagine there was some handwringing over whether or not to try to bring them more into alignment. Do you have any more info on that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was never any concern about whether the Chinese and Japanese calendars for the current year matched.
Through the 15th century there was some concern with matching the Chinese classics, as adjustments to the Metonic cycle.
In the Edo period, before 1685 there was discussion on whether to adopt a new calendar and if so which. They ended up with a localization of the Chinese 1281 calendar, but the current Chinese 1645 calendar was never even considered. I will discuss this eventually Smile, but the "true" solar terms adopted by the Chinese in 1645 and by the Japanese in 1844 occasionally cause trouble with intercalary months, as in 1851-2.
Shibukawa Suketaka defends the use of true solar terms despite the problem not by saying "because the modern Chinese do it," but by saying "it is in the spirit of the ancient sages who established the calendar, like the Yellow Emperor." But they did look at previous Chinese calendars to see how to deal with the problem. For 1851-52 Suketaka says basically: in Japan the dates and times of the new moons and solar terms are such and such, and when one takes the time difference into consideration, in the Chinese calendar they will be such and such, though I cannot be sure because some times are very close to midnight. I think they will probably deal with the problem by having an i8 for 1851. But we will have to wait till next year to be sure.
Fortunately for me, Suketaka wrote in Japanese, not Chinese, which most calendrical material is written in.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
We have been talking about how to understand dates in the original context.
So now I am finally back to where I intended to start, ready to discuss how to transmit Japanese dates in English, such as how Japanese months are indicated, should we use Japanese or western dates, and the problem that started it--what AD year to use for dates that fall between Jan. 1 and Gan-jitsu, such as Bunroku 1.

Of course, the digression was fun, but I believe that date transmission is an important topic that is (or should be) of interest to most forum members, not just something that should be on the 4th page of a thread. So in a few days I hope to start a new thread on that. Of course, if anyone comes up with something related to the topics in this thread, or some other similar problem of date confusion, you are welcome to continue here.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry for the digression, but do we know how the Japanese lunar calendar compares to the Chinese and Okinawan ones? Of course the era names are different, but how do the days and months line up?

If we have a source that says 尚質16.10.28 (16th year of the reign of Shô Shitsu, King of Ryukyu), can we assume that it was also 10/28 in 寛文三年 (Kanbun 3) and in 康熙三年 (3rd year of the reign of the Kangxi Emperor)?

I'd think this should be something relatively easy to find on Google, but I haven't come across it...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
Sorry for the digression, but do we know how the Japanese lunar calendar compares to the Chinese and Okinawan ones? Of course the era names are different, but how do the days and months line up?

If we have a source that says 尚質16.10.28 (16th year of the reign of Shô Shitsu, King of Ryukyu), can we assume that it was also 10/28 in 寛文三年 (Kanbun 3) and in 康熙三年 (3rd year of the reign of the Kangxi Emperor)

You cannot assume that the day of the year is the same in all three calendars. The Chinese and Japanese calendars are often one day different, and as was discussed several posts above, if the intercalary months are different for that period, the calendars can be off by a month for a month or more.

But for you specific question, I can assure you that 尚質16.10.28 was not the same day as 10/28 in 寛文三年 (Kanbun 3) and in 康熙三年 . Look at your year dates. Kanbun 3 is 1663, but Kangxi 3 is 1664. Which do you want? I think you need to read the year-date thread.

I suppose you started with the date 尚質十六年. When is his first year 元年? Looking at the Ja wiki for Sho Shitsu, his reign started in 1648, so his Year 1 in theory could be either 1648 or 1649. However, looking at the current usages in China and Japan and the Spring and Autumn Annals and the fact that he inherited his father's position, which were discussed on the other thread, Year 1 was probably 1649, which would make his year 16 1664. You should check out some year correspondences that you are sure of to see if this is the system used. Of course if you got Shô Shitsu 16 = Kangxi 3 from a good scholar, that would be certain. So 尚質16 probably corresponds to Kanbun 4 and Kangxi 3, i.e. 1664. I am interested, though, so when you check it out let me know which system Okinawa used.

Now look up Kanbun 4/10/28 (if that is the year you want) using Nengo Calc etc.
For the Chinese calendar, I use http://sinocal.sinica.edu.tw/
I find it far easier to estimate the date and use the western calendar in the bottom row than to try entering the Chinese date.

So, if the Chinese and Japanese calendar dates are the same, the Okinawan is presumably the same also. However, if they are different, you have to decide which calendar they were using. My guess is that it was the Chinese, especially as the Chinese were fussy about their vassals using the Chinese calendar and no nengo of their own (reign years are not nengo), but Satsuma was probably indifferent, or practical. Weren't they trying to hide their activities from China?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the Chinese calendar link; I'd been looking for something like this, but the only ones I found only work for modern dates, and don't go back far enough.

The Okinawa Compact Encyclopedia entry for Tei Junsoku, a Ryukyuan official I was looking up, equates Shô Shitsu 16 to 1663. Given that the Kangxi Emperor began his reign in 1661, I assumed that 1663 would be the third year of his reign. I see now that according to the calendar calculator you linked to, 1663 is only the 2nd year of his reign. So, my apologies for assuming, and messing up the date in my original question.

In any case, thanks for clarifying that the Chinese and Japanese didn't use the same dates... now if only I had a source that explicitly stated which calendar Ryukyu used, or how it lined up... Ah, well. I'll keep my eye out, and we'll see if we find anything. In the meantime, I'll just keep putting Notes in the SA Wiki articles stating when something is an Okinawan, Korean, or Chinese date rather than a Japanese one.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I realize now I was careless in figuring the reign date.
Ja Wiki gave his reign dates as 1648-1668, so I took 1648 as his accession year, but when I checked the date of death of his predecessor, it was in 1647, so when it says 1648, it means that that was his "1st year", not his accession year. So his 1st year is the year after his accession year, and that would work for the 16th year being 1663.
I notice that in the JA wiki they give the dates of birth and death using the Chinese nengo, which would suggest that the Okinawan court used the Chinese calendar as is. One idea--if you can find an intercalary month in Okinawa, see if it matches the Chinese or the Japanese calendar, or both. The Koreans definitely used the Chinese calendar from the Ming period.

For practice, what can you tell about the date 2012.i3.15?
For the Japanese 旧暦see the "新暦と旧暦" in the left column of http://koyomi.vis.ne.jp/
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay. Well, 2012.i3.15 corresponds to 5 May 2012 on the Japanese 新暦。 According to this website for the 沖縄旧暦, it matches up the same on the Okinawan calendar.

By contrast, the Chinese calendar site you gave me tells us that on the Chinese calendar, 5 May 2012 would be 4/15, and that the Chinese calendar puts an intercalary month i4 (閏4), not an i3 in this year.

Well, well. That wasn't so hard. Thanks for the guidance.

Now, the question remains whether this is an indication that Okinawa always used the Japanese calendar. (I'd think it strange if they did, especially since so much of the Confucian learning, geomancy, and all that used in the kingdom came from Ryukyuan students who studied in China; you'd expect they'd come back from China knowing the Chinese calendar system and using that for all their 天文学 calculations and the like.)

I'm really kind of surprised that none of the Okinawa-specific encyclopedias I've checked for 「旧暦」 or the like say anything about this question... I'll keep looking, just to be sure Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Of course, you have to look at dates for the period you want. Can you look through your dictionary for an Okinawan date with a 閏?
But, I would think they used the Chinese calendar. Didn't they claim to be loyal vassals of the Ming, then the Chin until Meiji? The Ming and Chin expected their vassals to use the Ming 大統暦and Chin 時憲暦calendars, while Japan tolerated various calendars even within Japan to an extent (see discussion above).
Try looking up 時憲暦 or even koyomi 暦. At the time it was not 旧暦, of course.

But I don't think the Okinawans would have calculated their own calendar. At least by the Chin period, the Chinese did not expect their vassals to calculate their own calendars. Rather, the court calculated the yearly calendar and bestowed it year by year on their dependents. The calendars included things like eclipse predictions also.

Have you seen (transcriptions of) any actual internal documents of the Okinawan court? What do they use for eras? Japanese nengo, Chinese nengo, reign years, or cyclic years? I wonder if the regnal years of the Okinawan kings were actually used at the time.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The argument about them using the Chinese calendar because of their strong connections and tributary relationship to Ming and Qing makes sense.

I have not seen any internal Ryukyuan documents, so I'm not sure what year names they might have used internally. But, in foreign relations documents, i.e. letters sent to China or Japan, they used the era names of whichever country they were speaking to, as well as writing in the language of whichever country they were speaking to. For the most part. So far as I know.
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