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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject: Translation Check Reply with quote
Working through Owada Tetsuo right now, and came across the following two sentences that are key points for me and I want to make sure I understand him. Please let me know if I'm off on my translations:

ところで、戦国時代の戦いは、近代および現代の戦いとちがって、トップないし、サブ・リーダーの資質というか力量に負うところ大である。

My rough trans:

By the way (additionally), in battles of the Sengoku period, unlike modern or current battles, the nature/disposition and capabilities of the top (commanders) to the sub-leader's had a greater bearing (on the outcome).

資質あるいは力量を、当時の言葉で「器量」などと表現しているが、トップないしサブ・リーダーの考える作戦の善し悪しによって勝敗が決まるという例が少なくない。

Either nature or capability, stated in the words of the time as "attractiveness", etc. but depending on from top to sub leader's conceived operation's good and bad, examples of winning and losing are not few.

(Restated, because that's really eliptical): We can see in many examples how the individual nature or capability of top commanders and/or subordinate leaders led to good and bad concepts of operations and wins or losses on the battlefield (Note: not a clue what the real value of the "kiryou" comment is and what he's trying to say with it, so help on that appreciated).

These are pretty central points in the introduction, and I need to make sure I understand accurately going forward. Thanks for the help in advance.
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
An attempt:

ところで、戦国時代の戦いは、近代および現代の戦いとちがって、トップないし、サブ・リーダーの資質というか力量に負うところ大である。

By the way, the battles of the sengoku period, unlike those of early modern or modern battles, were greatly dependent on the ability, or perhaps we should say the quality, of the top- and sub-leaders.


資質あるいは力量を、当時の言葉で「器量」などと表現しているが、トップないしサブ・リーダーの考える作戦の善し悪しによって勝敗が決まるという例が少なくない。
Quality or ability was called at the time "talent (for a particular task)", but there were many cases where the outcome of a battle was determined by the goodness or poorness of the tactics thought up by the top- or sub-leader.

き‐りょう【器量】‥リヤウ
(「器」は材の在る所、「量」は徳のみつる所の意)
#その地位・役目にふさわしい才能・人柄。保元物語「合戦の場には兄弟といふ差別候ふまじ。ただ―により候」。「人の上に立つ―がある」「―を上げる」
I have often come across a person described as an "utsuwa." Owada's point may be just that kiryô was a contemporary word, while shishitsu and rikiryô are modern.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
An attempt:

ところで、戦国時代の戦いは、近代および現代の戦いとちがって、トップないし、サブ・リーダーの資質というか力量に負うところ大である。

By the way, the battles of the sengoku period, unlike those of early modern or modern battles, were greatly dependent on the ability, or perhaps we should say the quality, of the top- and sub-leaders.


資質あるいは力量を、当時の言葉で「器量」などと表現しているが、トップないしサブ・リーダーの考える作戦の善し悪しによって勝敗が決まるという例が少なくない。
Quality or ability was called at the time "talent (for a particular task)", but there were many cases where the outcome of a battle was determined by the goodness or poorness of the tactics thought up by the top- or sub-leader.



Awesome, thanks--the first is pretty much what I thought, stated more ably than I could do. The second clears things up significantly.

Quote:
き‐りょう【器量】‥リヤウ
(「器」は材の在る所、「量」は徳のみつる所の意)
#その地位・役目にふさわしい才能・人柄。保元物語「合戦の場には兄弟といふ差別候ふまじ。ただ―により候」。「人の上に立つ―がある」「―を上げる」
I have often come across a person described as an "utsuwa." Owada's point may be just that kiryô was a contemporary word, while shishitsu and rikiryô are modern.


Okay--the casio denkijisho I'm using basically translated it as "beauty mark", so I didn't really quite get it. Thanks!
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsuさん日本語ペラペラやね。
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
New request: from the Matsudaira-ki:

「もっと味方の大勢をもって小敵に向う時はさもあらんとも思える。」

The 「はさもあらん」 is really throwing me. I can't figure out how to break it down into components. Is it "ha samoaran to" or what? The context is that that Takeda Katsuyori has gathered together his 25,000 mounted warriors (yes, the numbers are WAY off in this source) and arranged them in 13 ranks. If someone can help me out with that portion between 時 and と思える I would appreciate it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
New request: from the Matsudaira-ki:

「もっと味方の大勢をもって小敵に向う時はさもあらんとも思える。」

The 「はさもあらん」 is really throwing me. I can't figure out how to break it down into components. Is it "ha samoaran to" or what? The context is that that Takeda Katsuyori has gathered together his 25,000 mounted warriors (yes, the numbers are WAY off in this source) and arranged them in 13 ranks. If someone can help me out with that portion between 時 and と思える I would appreciate it.


Shouldn't that は be the subject indicator? I think it should be read "wa samoaran (it's probably so/stands to reason)" although written "ha". 3:30am grammar help, I might be off, though.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Talos wrote:
Shouldn't that は be the subject indicator? I think it should be read "wa samoaran (it's probably so/stands to reason)" although written "ha". 3:30am grammar help, I might be off, though.


That's what I would assume, but assumptions are frequently wrong, hence I didn't state it that way. However, yes, it is the partical は, and you're right about the reading, I found independent confirmation just a little before this (with help).

Thanks!
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Talos
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


That's what I would assume, but assumptions are frequently wrong, hence I didn't state it that way. However, yes, it is the partical は, and you're right about the reading, I found independent confirmation just a little before this (with help).

Thanks!


No prob, glad I could help (at least confirming that). Now for sleep. *headdesk*
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another one, same document:

「進み出でて足軽をかけ合わせて見ん、しかればよき鉄砲打ちの者を相添え給えと今にも出でんとす。」

The context is that one Okubo brother is talking to another as the Takeda advance towards them. In the previous sentence he says it would be a disgrace if the Oda make contact with the enemy first, as this is supposed to be the Tokugawa's fight. My reading for the above is roughly:

Advancing out, we have grouped the ashigaru together. Therefore, let's take the best shots among them and put them together, I beg you, and something about going out now (?)

Admittedly, it's been a long day and there isn't enough caffeine in the Sun Drop I'm drinking, so help deciphering that appreciated. As you can no doubt tell, all I'm interested in is functional translation, not "make it pretty for publication" translation. As long as I can get the gist right, it's okay to me. This seems to be the two Okubo brothers coming up with the idea for grouping the gunners together, which is amusing since the Matsudaira-ki was written by one of their descendants.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This should give you something to work on.
「進み出でて足軽をかけ合わせて見ん、しかればよき鉄砲打ちの者を相添え給えと今にも出でんとす。」

Let us try advancing and having the ashigaru meet the enemy head-on. Therefore saying (to the commanders?) "Attach good firearms men (to yourselves)," we will immediately try to go out.

I don't like the second sentence, but the quotative とis the only thing I can come up with for the と.


edit: Explaining shikareba as そこで "at that point," one of the meanings listed, gets a clearer meaning. "Let's try having the ashigara engage the enemy. And at that point we go out with good marksmen."
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu, thanks, that fits. More later--I'm almost done with Matsudaira-ki, next is Sanshuu Nagashino Senki (参州長篠戦記)
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