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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:06 am    Post subject: The Sengoku Period - Q & A Reply with quote
For the next podcast we're going to be going over the Sengoku period, which will include a Question and Answer section, so post your questions here, as basic, detailed, complex, or simple as you like, and we'll do our best to answer them!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd be curious to learn more about what went down in Shikoku and Kyushu during the Sengoku.

Not that I necessarily have the clearest sense myself of the narrative in the more central parts, but even if I'm not clear on it myself, I still feel like certain clans, certain areas, seem to be the dominant story. And I'd be curious to hear about other areas... Though of course we'll have to cover Takeda, Oda, Toyotomi, Tokugawa anyway. And, I guess(?) some Maeda, Shibata Katsuie action, Kanto etc.

PS It just occurred to me, we (I) could do a Shimazu Invasion of Ryukyu podcast at some point, if we wanted to... the overlooked step-child of the Korean Invasions.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I second that; i'm currently reading up on what happened in Kyushu during the Sengoku, very interesting read I must say.
Wouldn't mind to learn more about the Shimazu quest for (total?) dominance, the tragic end of the Otomo (Mimigawa, etc), the rising power of the Ryuzoji (culminating with Okita Nawate), and the lesser (but nonetheless powerful) factions like the Ito, Kimotsuki, Arima, Shibuya families, etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Who was in charge of the fort of Shinmei at Shizugatake?


Was it Kimura Sadashige 木村定重 or his son Kimura Shigekore 木村重茲
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
I'd be curious to learn more about what went down in Shikoku and Kyushu during the Sengoku.

Not that I necessarily have the clearest sense myself of the narrative in the more central parts, but even if I'm not clear on it myself, I still feel like certain clans, certain areas, seem to be the dominant story. And I'd be curious to hear about other areas... Though of course we'll have to cover Takeda, Oda, Toyotomi, Tokugawa anyway. And, I guess(?) some Maeda, Shibata Katsuie action, Kanto etc.

PS It just occurred to me, we (I) could do a Shimazu Invasion of Ryukyu podcast at some point, if we wanted to... the overlooked step-child of the Korean Invasions.


Lordameth, good call on the Shikoku and Kyushu Sengoku topics. I think it needs to be discussed. I hope in the future Domer will have his mini-series discussion on Nagashino. That is the one podcast I am really looking forward to. If an Okehazama podcast is the making, I can send the crew some info.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lugbar wrote:
Who was in charge of the fort of Shinmei at Shizugatake?


Was it Kimura Sadashige 木村定重 or his son Kimura Shigekore 木村重茲


Um, that's a rather hyper-specific question that doesn't really mean anything to a broad audience. The point isn't to farm out research to us. The point is to suggest things for us to discuss that can elucidate the Sengoku as a whole. Someone who knows very little about the Sengoku isn't going to learn anything from that question.

While we can try to touch on Shikoku and Kyushu, I will remind everyone that this is a BROAD OVERVIEW. Specific questions like the Okinawa/Shimazu deserve their own podcast, because in something like this we can really only devote a minute or two to discussing it. Also, considering my time is already constrained to do this, as I've already dropped one class this semester because I simply don't have the time for it, don't ask us to do things that are going to take hours to research. GENERAL--that's the point here. Kitsuno isn't looking for ideas for whole podcasts, he's looking for ideas for a general podcast on the Sengoku, in order to make it more than a boring timeline discussion.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My asking probably wasn't specific enough - definitely general questions are best, but since we can pick and choose, if you have a burning desire, go ahead and comment and I'll note it for later.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about diving into how the Onin war made the phenomenon known as gekokujō possible and how examples of this manifested itself within the Sengoku Period.

I think this may be an interesting topic for people with only a base knowledge of the Sengoku period and will help explain how this phenomenon perpetuated a lot of the strife.

Time to vanish again. Cheers. Ninja!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
How about diving into how the Onin war made the phenomenon known as gekokujō possible and how examples of this manifested itself within the Sengoku Period.

I think this may be an interesting topic for people with only a base knowledge of the Sengoku period and will help explain how this phenomenon perpetuated a lot of the strife.

Time to vanish again. Cheers. Ninja!


We spent two podcasts on this....?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, sorry.Have been traveling a lot (almost 6 out of the last 8 weeks). Have't been around here much lately and I guess I am hopelessly behind on listening to the podcasts as well.

And here I thought I was onto a good idea. Oh well.
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Oh, sorry. Have been traveling a lot (almost 6 out of the last 8 weeks) and I guess I am hopelessly behind on listening to the podcasts.


Okay, no worries then.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Questions: I wonder why Hideyoshi went ahead with his idea to conquer China (even India) by first taking over Korea in 1592 and 1597-8. Did he have any idea how enormous China and its population was?

Why didn't he know how fierce the Korean and Chinese warriors and Korean navy were? Did he think he was infallible and/or Japan was infallible?

Wasn't China recognized as the mother country for East Asian civilization? What happened to respect for Korea and China?

For hundreds of years there were visits from Chinese officials and priests, as well as Japanese priests who went to China to study before returning to Japan. In addition, during Sengoku, there were Catholic priests in Japan who had been in China or Macao. There must have been enough known about China to recognize how unrealistic Hideyoshi's invasion plans were.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Oh, sorry.Have been traveling a lot (almost 6 out of the last 8 weeks). Have't been around here much lately and I guess I am hopelessly behind on listening to the podcasts as well.

And here I thought I was onto a good idea. Oh well.


Where ya been? India? China? South Korea?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hosokawa Gracia wrote:
Questions: I wonder why Hideyoshi went ahead with his idea to conquer China (even India) by first taking over Korea in 1592 and 1597-8. Did he have any idea how enormous China and its population was?

Why didn't he know how fierce the Korean and Chinese warriors and Korean navy were? Did he think he was infallible and/or Japan was infallible?

Wasn't China recognized as the mother country for East Asian civilization? What happened to respect for Korea and China?

For hundreds of years there were visits from Chinese officials and priests, as well as Japanese priests who went to China to study before returning to Japan. In addition, during Sengoku, there were Catholic priests in Japan who had been in China or Macao. There must have been enough known about China to recognize how unrealistic Hideyoshi's invasion plans were.

Carmen


50 years later the Ming were toppled by the Manchus. Was it really that far fetched for a smaller nation to come in and conquer China? Especially when that smaller nation has a highly militarized population with advanced weaponry for the time and a culture and experience in advanced warfare? I don't think Hideyoshi's concept was as bad as you make out--I think the execution and the timing were off. And the Koreans didn't do much to impress anyone on land, until the guerillas popped up. Their armies didn't do anything to stop Hideyoshi's. If Japan had any concept of advanced naval combat, they could have potentially held on in Korea, and had the Ming been the Ming of the 1640's, they wouldn't have been able to provide Korea with protection.

Of course, one major reason the Ming were so weak in the 1640's was the cost of war in Korea against the Japanese, but...

Nothing is as simple as it seems on the surface.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Hosokawa Gracia wrote:
Questions: I wonder why Hideyoshi went ahead with his idea to conquer China (even India) by first taking over Korea in 1592 and 1597-8. Did he have any idea how enormous China and its population was?

Why didn't he know how fierce the Korean and Chinese warriors and Korean navy were? Did he think he was infallible and/or Japan was infallible?

Wasn't China recognized as the mother country for East Asian civilization? What happened to respect for Korea and China?

For hundreds of years there were visits from Chinese officials and priests, as well as Japanese priests who went to China to study before returning to Japan. In addition, during Sengoku, there were Catholic priests in Japan who had been in China or Macao. There must have been enough known about China to recognize how unrealistic Hideyoshi's invasion plans were.

Carmen


50 years later the Ming were toppled by the Manchus. Was it really that far fetched for a smaller nation to come in and conquer China? Especially when that smaller nation has a highly militarized population with advanced weaponry for the time and a culture and experience in advanced warfare? I don't think Hideyoshi's concept was as bad as you make out--I think the execution and the timing were off. And the Koreans didn't do much to impress anyone on land, until the guerillas popped up. Their armies didn't do anything to stop Hideyoshi's. If Japan had any concept of advanced naval combat, they could have potentially held on in Korea, and had the Ming been the Ming of the 1640's, they wouldn't have been able to provide Korea with protection.

Of course, one major reason the Ming were so weak in the 1640's was the cost of war in Korea against the Japanese, but...

Nothing is as simple as it seems on the surface.



Itdomer, I am reading more about Korea and China nowadays because the majority of my ESL students have been Korean since I returned from Japan, and there is a large group of Chinese students in the International Club I advise. The Korean guys all mention Hideyoshi. I got a strong impression that his name embodies Koreans' ultimate enemy. I am against any country invading another, even if the commander is a genius. However, I belong to the SA especially to learn more about history from different perspectives, so I welcome your response.

Carmen
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hosokawa Gracia wrote:
Itdomer, I am reading more about Korea and China nowadays because the majority of my ESL students have been Korean since I returned from Japan, and there is a large group of Chinese students in the International Club I advise. The Korean guys all mention Hideyoshi. I got a strong impression that his name embodies Koreans' ultimate enemy. I am against any country invading another, even if the commander is a genius. However, I belong to the SA especially to learn more about history from different perspectives, so I welcome your response.

Carmen


Carmen:

I'm not sure what modern day Korean's attitudes towards Hideyoshi have to do with the question you originally posed. Nor am I really understanding what your personal opinion of one country invading another has to do with anything. The question isn't about whether it was morally correct for Hideyoshi to invade Korea and China--the question you posed seemed to be asking how Hideyoshi could have possibly thought he'd succeed in taking China. While I would also include the facts that A. Hideyoshi was likely suffering from mental issues that manifested in megalomania and B. he likely DIDN'T know how difficult it would be and C. he might not have even cared if the purpose was to divert a huge military caste that all of a sudden had no domestic wars to fight, my point is that 50 years later China was conquered by a much smaller outsider.

I'm really confused by your response--I'm not trying to justify morally Hideyoshi's invasion. I don't really care about the morality of it. Countries invaded each other in the 16th century. Countries have invaded each other from the beginning of time, and continue to do so today, for a variety of reasons, some of which aren't "nefarious" (though that discussion is not relevant or appropriate for this discussion board, and will not end well). Germany was invaded in 1945, for instance, and I think most of us can agree that wasn't a bad thing. Neither the Chinese nor the Koreans are completely innocent throughout the courses of their histories (especially the Chinese). The event (Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea) happened. Your Korean students are entitled to, and probably justified, to have their opinion. I had Korean soldiers who worked for me when I was stationed there who considered Hideyoshi the embodiment of Satan--who am I to argue with them, even if I don't particularly have an opinion on the matter. You're entitled to feel that any and all invasion is wrong, though that's exceedingly narrow. Whether or not it was moral doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it could have been a success. My point is, to say that Hideyoshi's concept to invade China was ludicrous is very simplistic, considering that 50 years later China was conquered by an outside people who probably had less resources than Hideyoshi had at his disposal. Had the circumstances been right and the Japanese approached issues of supply differently, we could have had a very different history. Or maybe not.

I'm offering an objective response to your question. I'm not advocating his invasion nor am I passing judgment on it. I'm not sure why you'd respond as if I were saying he SHOULD have invaded. I'm simply saying that the prospect of his success isn't that out of the realm of possibility, given what happened time and again in Chinese history.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: navies Reply with quote
What were the differences between the Japanese, Korean and Chinese navies during the Bunroku no Eki and Keicho no Eki? Did the Japanese adapt to naval warfare- I know they had a few major victories- did they eventually mount cannon on their ships?

I vaguely remember some mention of Nobunaga mounting cannon on his great ships during his naval battles with the Mori.

thanks for a great podcast and forum.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Hosokawa Gracia wrote:
Itdomer, I am reading more about Korea and China nowadays because the majority of my ESL students have been Korean since I returned from Japan, and there is a large group of Chinese students in the International Club I advise. The Korean guys all mention Hideyoshi. I got a strong impression that his name embodies Koreans' ultimate enemy. I am against any country invading another, even if the commander is a genius. However, I belong to the SA especially to learn more about history from different perspectives, so I welcome your response.

Carmen


Carmen:

I'm offering an objective response to your question. I'm not advocating his invasion nor am I passing judgment on it. I'm not sure why you'd respond as if I were saying he SHOULD have invaded. I'm simply saying that the prospect of his success isn't that out of the realm of possibility, given what happened time and again in Chinese history.


No, I didn't think that you were saying that the invasion was just or anything like that. I live near one of the largest Korean communities in the U.S., so I'm reading more about Korea nowadays. I understand that Sengoku battle strategy as well as other aspects are the focus here, not the perspective from Korea or China.

I will admit that my questions seem as if they were antagonist towards Hideyoshi, perhaps, but I was mostly thinking about the size and populations, not strategy and military readiness.

Carmen
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are many threads about Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, including potential motives and information on the size and scope of naval forces. Please use the forum's Google function as well as peruse the Kamakura to Sengoku sub-forum. Additionally, check out the interview with Samuel Hawley on the Shogun Ki blog. Reading up on this information before it is tackled in a podcast may be a good primer.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, this is not really a question but more a sugestion regarding the next Sengoku podcast. Maybe you can explain in short detail what happened in the various regions of Japan (Tohoku, Chugoku, Kyushu etc.)before the clans that lived there were defeated or subjugated by Nobunaga or Hideyoshi.
You could tell really short what clans ruled in those regions, how they interacted with each other and who became the most dominant.
I don't know if this is way to much information for one podcast, but i think it'll give the listeners a good image of what happened during the Sengoku.

If you pick up this idea or not, Im sure it will be a great podcast and I hope to learn a lot from it! Smile

Greetings,
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rainyama wrote:
Hi, this is not really a question but more a sugestion regarding the next Sengoku podcast. Maybe you can explain in short detail what happened in the various regions of Japan (Tohoku, Chugoku, Kyushu etc.)before the clans that lived there were defeated or subjugated by Nobunaga or Hideyoshi.
You could tell really short what clans ruled in those regions, how they interacted with each other and who became the most dominant.
I don't know if this is way to much information for one podcast, but i think it'll give the listeners a good image of what happened during the Sengoku.

If you pick up this idea or not, Im sure it will be a great podcast and I hope to learn a lot from it! Smile

Greetings,
Rainyama


The next podcast will be released today or tomorrow, and in it we did do a little of this. Probably not to the extent we could have, but we're still just doing an overview. This podcast focuses on the "big names" of the later Sengoku period - Oda Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, Shingen, Kenshin, etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
There are many threads about Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, including potential motives and information on the size and scope of naval forces. Please use the forum's Google function as well as peruse the Kamakura to Sengoku sub-forum. Additionally, check out the interview with Samuel Hawley on the Shogun Ki blog. Reading up on this information before it is tackled in a podcast may be a good primer.


Respectfully, prior to posting my question above, I did search the forum for the state of Hideyoshi's navy during the later end of the Bunroku no Eki and during the Keicho no Eki, as well as read the Hawley interview. I could not find the info that I was looking for. I hope that question, or perhaps a longer form podcast about naval matters during and around the Sengoku Jidai be addressed at some point.

-jim
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jim, maybe these threads will help in regards to naval forces during the first invasion.
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=2737
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=2783

We never discussed the re-invasion due to lack of participants. In regards to J-naval forces, not much changed in regards to ship construction, type of ships used and tactics.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


If anyone can interpret this, you get your question featured in an upcoming podcast, and a 500 koku gift card to the Samurai Archives Store!**



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm, I could be stretching it, but is that a chart of the Takeda clan's movements and battles against Tokugawa and Nobunaga?
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