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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Newly discovered historical record in Korea said...... Reply with quote
Silla belonged to Wa(Japan)
新羅其賽一也或属韓或属倭国王


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Article
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=103&oid=001&aid=0005224764

The record is called 梁職貢図 新羅題記
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The text within which this new section was found is apparently called the Liang Chih Kong-Tu (梁職貢図) according to http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000384100

For a Japanese article:

「梁職貢図」から新羅・高句麗題起が発見
2011-08-23 13:00

ttp://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2011/08/23/AKR20110823082800005_01_i.jpg
新しくあらわれた梁職貢図新羅題記

青黛文集から捜し出して..ユン・ヨング博士公開
「新羅は倭の属国」論議予告

(ソウル=聯合ニュース)キム・テシク記者=韓国古代史研究の第1級資料の中の一つと見なされる
梁職貢図から永遠に消えたと見なされた新羅と高句麗に対する簡略な説明の題記が最近発見された。

特に今回発見された新羅に対する題記には新羅が倭の属国という一節があっていわゆる任那日本府説と
かみ合わさって論議がおきる展望だ。

韓国古代社専攻の仁川(インチョン)都市開発公社ユン・ヨング博士は去る20日西江(ソガン)大茶山館で
行われた新羅史学会(フェチャン、キム・チャンギョム)第107回学術発表会を通じて中国で最近発見報告
された梁職貢図題起を分析、紹介した。

ユン博士は今回公開された梁職貢図題記を南京博物館旧蔵本の梁職貢図版本と比較した結果、「新羅と
高句麗を含んだ7ヶ国の題起は完全に新しく出現した資料で、合わせて百済と倭国をはじめとして既に
知らされた9ヶ国の題起も内容で差が小さくない」と話した。(中略)

ユン博士はこの内容中でも新羅が倭国に属したりもしたという言及が新しく現れた大きな課題であり、
これをどのように受け入れるかによって歴史学界で論議が広がることがありうると付け加えた。
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So what's this mean for us, Asuka boy? And are you ready to present on it for Monday's class?
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OishiYoshio
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I dare not say that Dokdo/Takeshima may have belonged to Silla which in turn belonged to ... Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So wait, does this prove the Japanese interpretation of the Gwanggaeto Stele? Does this kill the theories of the Wa being a Korean colony and the Wa not being a powerful state?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
During this period, the archaeological record in the Korean peninsula does not support a level of interaction beyond trade between the Three Kingdoms and the Wa.

I would not get too excited about this.

EDIT: Before I run, according to J-wiki the text reads "或屬韓或屬倭" - "At times belonging to/loyal to Wa." It would be misguided to attempt to suppose Wa administrative control over Silla. There is no material evidence of this. If this text is to be taken at face value, I would suggest that a distant relationship of tribute is the most we can stretch our imaginations.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Doesn't the Book of Song, Gwanggaeto Stele, the Nihonshoki and the Samguksagi all suggest this as well?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kikuchiyo wrote:
Doesn't the Book of Song, Gwanggaeto Stele, the Nihonshoki and the Samguksagi all suggest this as well?


All of these texts have serious problems. The Nihon Shoki and the Gwanggaeto Stele are tools of legitimization. The investitures in the Song chronicle also require a very careful analysis of the Song political motives behind their bestowal of titles upon Bu, etc.

National histories are legitimatory texts. The greatest evidence of human presence is the archaeological record. We are hard-pressed to find any evidence of a strong presence of Wa administrative control in Silla. For example, armor and weapon types, construction technology, pottery, etc. There is nothing substantial to physically bolster the claims of the Nihon Shoki.

So this would then suggest an alliance at the government level, rather than an on-the-ground invasion and infiltration by the Wa. This is much more difficult to prove, as records of such communications rarely survive.

The Suda Hachiman Shrine mirror and the kouyami pine used in both Wa coffins and the coffin of King Muryeong suggest a strong alliance between Paekche and Wa at the turn of the 6th century.

What about the relationship with Silla? I am not convinced with the physical evidence at our disposal.

Linguistic evidence is also useful. Finding a Wa substrate would be very useful, indeed. Unfortunately, the evidence does not suggest such linguistic movement in that direction over the Tsushima strait.

If you happen to be interested in the linguistic relationship between Japanese and Korean, I recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/Koreo-Japonica-Re-evaluation-Common-Genetic-Studies/dp/0824832787/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1322978463&sr=8-7
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Really interesting topic. Thanks !
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kikuchiyo wrote:
So wait, does this prove the Japanese interpretation of the Gwanggaeto Stele?
Does this kill the theories of the Wa being a Korean colony and the Wa not being a powerful state?


The theory - Wa being a Korean colony- is only believed in Korea.
Korea had insisted evil Japanese "Re-Curved" the Gwanggaeto Stele inscription but it was proven lie in 2005, an older ink impression of the inscription found in China which proved the Gwanggaeto Stele had never been revised since before Japanese discovered it.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kikuchiyo wrote:
Doesn't the Book of Song, Gwanggaeto Stele, the Nihonshoki and the Samguksagi all suggest this as well?


I think only Nihonshoki and Gwanggaeto Stele said Silla surrendered to Wa and as nagaeyari said, there's no archaeological evidence of Silla being under Wa.

However as Book of Song, Samguk Sagi and Nihon Shoki said the Japanese in southern Korean peninsula frequently attacked Silla, so something like that might happened once and it resulted the inscription and Empress Jingu's conquest of 3 Han story.
Samguk Sagi also said Silla sent prince Mishikin to Wa as a hostage.
So Chinese, Korean and Japanese historical records all come into line.
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