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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for the link, Tatsu. I was able to read it. I don't think I can write to it, which is probably just as well. Just Kidding I don't think double years will ever become standard. Giving someone's dates as 1456/1457 - 1519/1520 is not only confusing, but takes up space.

About using the Gregorian calendar for agricultural matters, that does make sense to some extent, especially if comparing years. But how it the original data presented? I wonder if more crops were produced in leap years because there was more time to produce them! To answer the question someone posed there, agricultural planning was done on the basis of the Chinese solar year, probably our next topic, not on the basis of the lunar dates. As mentioned in the thread on picture calendars, solar year dates were provided in almost all calendar exemplars.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gregorian Calendar

As was mentioned above, the average length of the Julian year is 365.25 days is longer than the average tropical year (太陽年、回帰年)length of 365.2422 days.

Q19 How many minutes off is the Julian average year from the tropical average year?

Q20 After 1250 years of the Julian calendar, the spring equinox will occur how many calendar days earlier/later than it did at the beginning?

As mentioned above, it was probably known at the start of the Julian calendar that 365.25 was not perfect, but the difference was certainly much less noticeable than that of the Egyptian calendar. But apparently no one was much bothered by it, and Dante, writing in the early 14th century, did not expect the matter to change. In Paradise, Canto XXVII 142 Beatrice predicts that something will happen "Ere January be unwintered (i.e. occur in spring), through/ The hundredth of a day which men neglect."

However, in the 16th century, the Roman Catholic church decided to change it. The reason was the date of Easter. Easter celebrates the resurrection of Christ, which occurred on the Sunday following Passover, which is the 14th day after the first new moon of spring. So three cycles were involved. At first there were various ways to determine when to celebrate Easter, but in 325 it was decided it should be the Sunday following the first full moon after the equinox. Later, the equinox was defined as starting on March 21, and the date of the full moon was determined using Alexandrian 19-year cycle. The point was not astronomical preciseness, but unity of celebration across a wide area, so even when the rule had clearly diverged from the true equinox and full moon, they kept the it. However, by the 16th century, the difference was so great, that the Roman Catholic church decided to change it. (I suppose that with the Reformation going on there were also political considerations, but I have not come across a discussion of them.)

Q21 Ignoring the change to determining the lunar cycle, which of course does not affect the solar calendar, two changes were made to the Julian calendar. What were they?

Q22 The first day of the Gregorian calendar was Oct. 15. 1582. Why do you think they picked that rather than some day like Jan.1 or March 1?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q19 How many minutes off is the Julian average year from the tropical average year?


The Julian year on average is about 11 minutes longer than the tropical year. Since it appears calculations on the actual length of the solar year are slightly different, it actually ranges from about 10.94 minutes to 11.23.

Bethetsu wrote:
Q20 After 1250 years of the Julian calendar, the spring equinox will occur how many calendar days earlier/later than it did at the beginning?
The Spring Equinox would fall about 10 days earlier on the Julian calendar after 1250 years, which is why 10 days were 'skipped' when the Gregorian calendar was adopted (although an argument can be made that it should have been 12, using year 1 instead of 325 as the starting point).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Q21 Ignoring the change to determining the lunar cycle, which of course does not affect the solar calendar, two changes were made to the Julian calendar. What were they?

Q22 The first day of the Gregorian calendar was Oct. 15. 1582. Why do you think they picked that rather than some day like Jan.1 or March 1?


The Gregorian calendar skipped over 10 days of the Julian calendar to adjust for the 'drift' mentioned in the above post (from 325-1582). It also made plans to skip three leap years out of four that fell on centennial years so as to adjust for the 11 minute per year time difference.

I'm assuming they picked October because doing so wouldn't have 'skipped over' any important Christian days of celebration, like Jan 1 would have (Christmas) or March 1 (sorry, I know there's some sort of important Christian holiday that often falls in the last week of February but I don't recall what it's called).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Bethetsu wrote:
Q21 Q22 The first day of the Gregorian calendar was Oct. 15. 1582. Why do you think they picked that rather than some day like Jan.1 or March 1?


The Gregorian calendar skipped over 10 days of the Julian calendar to adjust for the 'drift' mentioned in the above post (from 325-1582). It also made plans to skip three leap years out of four that fell on centennial years so as to adjust for the 11 minute per year time difference.

Yes. specifically,
1) the day after October 4, 1582 was made October 15, skipping ten days..
2) Like in the Julian calendar, every year whose AD date was divisible by four was made a leap year, except that years divisible by 100 but not by 400 are not leap years. So 1700, 1800, 2100 were/will be leap years, while 1600 and 2000 were not. So I doubt that anyone who reads this has had/will have the experience of a non leap year in a year divisible by 4.

Now, this rule does not keep the equinox from moving around slightly. Since it is a global moment, unless it occurs exactly at noon GMT (UT), it will be on different days in different countries, but furthermore there is a 400-year cycle. In Japan, where the equinoxes are legal holidays, in the middle of the 20th century, the spring equinox was almost always on March 21, for a while after 2055 it will almost always be on March 20, and now it usually alternates every two years between the two.
The pattern change is because leap years occur 4 and 8 years apart. I looked at this webpage
http://www.ns1763.ca/equinox/eqindex.html
and realized that the pattern would be much more stable if instead of 8 years apart every 100 or 200 years, every 33 years or so they waited 5 years for a leap year. I suspect that they did not take this option because such a calendar would have been a hard sell. Very Happy

Quote:

I'm assuming they picked October because doing so wouldn't have 'skipped over' any important Christian days of celebration, like Jan 1 would have (Christmas) or March 1 (sorry, I know there's some sort of important Christian holiday that often falls in the last week of February but I don't recall what it's called).
That is my idea, too. (could you be thinking of the start of Lent, 46 days before Easter?)
Not all countries changed to Gregorian on Oct 5, 1582. Part of Holland changed at the end of the year, and missed Christmas. This page gives the dates for when some countries changed.
www..org/calendars/year-countries.html
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For comparing the two types of dates, I usually make up a table on the spot for the number of days to add/subtract in each century.

1500 10
1600 10
1700 11
1800 12
1900 13
2000 13
I think the biggest problem in converting is not to add when you should subtract, or vv. I find it safest to make a heading such as the following and use it as a guide:
J Oct. 5, 1700 - 11 - G Oct. 16, 1700


In practice, the J/G difference comes up in two different ways in Japanese studies. One is general use of conversion tables. When converting to or from a western calendar or looking at astronomical tables, which western calendar is used? Most use Julian before Oct. 5, and Gregorian after, as Nengo Calc and the NASA tables.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html
You can always check by reading the explanation or see what happens between Oct. 4 and 15, 1582.

The other case is looking at European materials related to Japanese history.
The Portuguese and Spanish changed from the beginning, or for those is Asia, presumably as soon as they knew about it. The Dutch came to Japan in 1600 and the English shortly after that. The Dutch used the Gregorian calendar but the English still used the Julian calendar. This is clear from various remarks made in the diary of the Englishman Richard Cox. For example, late in 1615 he writes "The Hollands discharged much ordinance, it being their new yeares day."

Q 23 What was the date in his diary?
With the English calendar of the time, there was also the problem of when the year started. We discussed this matter in detail in an earlier thread, so I will not get into it here, but I strongly urge anyone looking at English material from that period to look at these.

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=5126&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=5126&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=46

The other time the Julian calendar is important in Japanese history is in dealings with Russia, which did not change till the revolution.

Q24
A. What would Japanese May 27, 1879 be in Russia?
B. What would Russian Feb. 25, 1900 be in Japan?
C. What would Gregorian March 5, 1800 be in Russia?
D. What were the dates of the Battle of Tsushima in the Japanese and the Russian calendars?
E. Now, one comes across the Julian calendar mostly in the church calendars of Eastern Orthodox churches. What Gregorian day do they celebrate Christmas on?

Edit: Some Orthodox Churches, as the Armenian Orthodox, still use the Julian calendar, but others, as the Greek Orthodox, use the Gregorian calender for at least most fixed holidays.


Last edited by Bethetsu on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
So 1700, 1800, 2100 were/will be leap years, while 1600 and 2000 were not.


Shouldn't this be the opposite (1700, 1800, 2100 aren't leap years but 1600 and 2000 are)?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Shouldn't this be the opposite (1700, 1800, 2100 aren't leap years but 1600 and 2000 are)?
Yes. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, now that I’m sure about that…

Bethetsu wrote:
Q 23 What was the date in his diary?


I’m assuming the Dutch were celebrating New Years Day on January 1st (not in March) as decreed by the Gregorian Reforms. So the English date would have been December 22nd, 1615.

Bethetsu wrote:
Q24

A. What would Japanese May 27, 1879 be in Russia?
B. What would Russian Feb. 25, 1900 be in Japan?
C. What would Gregorian March 5, 1800 be in Russia?
D. What were the dates of the Battle of Tsushima in the Japanese and the Russian calendars?
E. Now, one comes across the Julian calendar mostly in the church calendars of Eastern Orthodox churches. What Gregorian day do they celebrate Christmas on?

A. May 15th, 1879
B. Since this date falls before the leap day that would be on the Julian but not the Gregorian calendar, I’m assuming there’s still only a 12 day difference. So it would be March 9th, 1900.
C. Same issue as above, I think. So it would be February 22th (only 11 days).
D. Japanese-May 27-28, 1905. Russian-May 14-15
E. January 7
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, all of your dates are correct.

I found a copy and annotated English translation of the papal decree establishing the Gregorian calendar.
http://www.bluewaterarts.com/calendar/NewInterGravissimas.htm
Getting as close as possible to the original documents is always interesting. I found several points particularly relevant to our discussion here.

It does appear that they thought about which festivals would be skipped. The four skipped ones (none of which I have heard of) would be celebrated on October 15 and 16, and the readings for one Sunday would be skipped. The festival days of the important St. Francis of Assisi on Oct. 4 and St. Luke the Evangelist (gospel writer) on Oct. 18 would not be changed.

I notice that days are given not by ordinary dates like Oct. 18, but by the Roman terms, as "fifteenth Kalends November," 15th day before November, inclusive. I suppose this is because it was a papal decree, not ordinary usage.

An interesting statement is "As for those however which live in areas too distant to take knowledge of this letter in time, they are allowed to make such a change in October of the year which will follow immediately, namely 1583, or the next one, as soon, of course, as this letter will have come to them, in the manner that we indicated above." So the Jesuits in Japan were not expected to make the change on the spot. I had wondered how they managed it.

The decree does not say that years should be counted by AD years, that the year count should change on Jan. 1, or that leap day should be Feb. 29 instead of a doubled Feb. 24, though I think the latter two are now universal where the Gregorian calendar was used, but I don't know the process. It is interesting that the decree uses the Julian date, "Given at Tusculum [now part of Frascati], in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1581, sixth calends March [February 24th]; of our pontificate, year 10. [This was signed in 1582 (New Style); it was dated 1581 using the Easter Year style of Florence, which starts a new year on March 25th.]" (brackets those of the translator) But of course it seems many countries had changed the year count on Jan. 1 from Roman times. I think I will resist the temptation to investigate how this was handled in various places. For Japan, Cocks is enough.

Of course, the historians' "proleptic Julian calendar" used in conversion and astronomical tables start the year count with Jan. 1,
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Western solar calendars in Japan

The western solar calendar arrived in Japan with the Europeans, and it was particularly known in its relation to the church calendar. The Jesuit letters often give dates in the church calendar ("on the feast of St. So-and-so"), and of course Japanese clergy and lay leaders learned how to use church calendars. Several 16th-17th century church calendars are known in Japan.The calendars would determine the prayers and Bible readings, etc., for the day.
Perpetual church calendars list all days from Jan. 1 to Dec.31, and the fixed days like Christmas corresponding to them. Besides, each day except the leap day is given a letter A through G, in a cycle, starting with A on Jan 1, that is used to easily find the day of the week for any day. Besides there are tables giving the dates of Easter and commemorations that are determined with respect to Easter each year.
Copy out the next three paragraphs and put the answer after the bold Q .

The use of letters to indicate the days of the week, especially Sundays, goes back to the old Roman calendar use of nundinal letters for market days. It works like this:
In 2012, the first Sunday in the year was the 7th, a G day, so the Sunday letter was the 7th letter, G. Ordinary years the Sunday letter stays the same throughout the year. However, as this year is a leap year, the G days on the calendar were Sunday until leap day, after which the Sunday letter changed to Q 25 .
Of course 1582 was the year of Gregorian change, but it didn't change the cycle of the days of the week. The first Sunday of the year was Jan. Q 26 , so the Sunday letter was Q 26. Oct. 4 (Jul), a Q 27 [day of the week], was followed by Oct 15 (Greg), which was the next day of the week, namely Q 28 . The Sunday letter became that of the next Sunday, Oct 17, which was the letter Q 29 in the perpetual calendar. The papal decree on the Gregorian calendar spells out this change in the Sunday letter.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The use of letters to indicate the days of the week, especially Sundays, goes back to the old Roman calendar use of nundinal letters for market days. It works like this:
In 2012, the first Sunday in the year was the 7th, a G day, so the Sunday letter was the 7th letter, G. Ordinary years the Sunday letter stays the same throughout the year. However, as this year is a leap year, the G days on the calendar were Sunday until leap day, after which the Sunday letter changed to Q F .
Of course 1582 was the year of Gregorian change, but it didn't change the cycle of the days of the week. The first Sunday of the year was Jan. Q 7 , so the Sunday letter was Q G. Oct. 4 (Jul), a Q Thursday/D [day of the week], was followed by Oct 15 (Greg), which was the next day of the week, namely Q Friday/A. The Sunday letter became that of the next Sunday, Oct 17, which was the letter Q C in the perpetual calendar. The papal decree on the Gregorian calendar spells out this change in the Sunday letter.



My question is, what's the reasoning behind NOT giving a letter to a leap day? It seems that if they wanted to easily identify all the days on a calendar by assigning a letter, it would make sense to letter the leap day. Not doing so gives two letters to each day of the week-pre and post leap day-at least if I'm reading this correctly.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
In 2012, the first Sunday in the year was the 7th, a G day, so the Sunday letter was the 7th letter, G. Ordinary years the Sunday letter stays the same throughout the year. However, as this year is a leap year, the G days on the calendar were Sunday until leap day, after which the Sunday letter changed to Q F .

Yes, that as well as the next paragraph is correct. Or, rather I should say, it would have been correct if the question had been correct.Embarassed I have no idea why I said the first Sunday in 2012 was Jan. 7. It would work for 1996, though, as the first Sunday was the 7th and it was a leap year. This year, Jan.1 was a Sunday, so the Sunday letter was A until March 1, when the letter moved backward in the cycle by one day to G.
Quote:
My question is, what's the reasoning behind NOT giving a letter to a leap day? It seems that if they wanted to easily identify all the days on a calendar by assigning a letter, it would make sense to letter the leap day. Not doing so gives two letters to each day of the week-pre and post leap day-at least if I'm reading this correctly.

They don't give a letter to leap day because there are fewer leap years than ordinary years (just over 3 to 1), so it is easier to make leap day the exception. The perpetual calendar has this:

Jan.
1 A
2 B
3 C
……
7 G
8 A
9 B
…..

Feb
26 A
27 B
28 C
29
March
1 D
2 E
3 F
4 G
5 A
6 B

So on ordinary years, the Sunday letter stays the same all year long. But just on leap years, from March the letter moves back one. So if the Sunday letter is B, on ordinary years both Feb. 27 and March 6 are Sunday. If it is a leap year, March 5 (A) is a Sunday. Does this make it clearer? Of course the perpetual calendar has to be used thinking.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I brought church calendars up because as I mentioned before, several Kirishitan calendars are known in Japan. I read a description of them, but no photos, so I have a lot of questions on details. Unfortunately I cannot find the copy I made of the paper, but I remember most of the gist.
One is a perpetual calendar using romaji that is basically a copy of the standard European one. Japanese clergy, who studied Latin, would be able to use it. It was preserved in Mito han's collection of about 70 Christian items, I suppose the equivalent of a police museum (?).
The one most useful to the ordinary Japanese Christian would be the 1592 (I think that was the year) calendar found in the Takatsuki area of Osaka, which was the domain of the Takayamas 1573-85. (This is not the Takatsuki in Tokyo that I visited several months ago.) This calendar was in Japanese and arranged according to the Japanese calendar starting 1592/1/1, and indicated Sundays and other commemorations by each day.
It would have been difficult for people away from Christian centers to get a new calendar each year, especially after the persecution started, and there were perpetual church calendars in Japanese. One was found in Nagasaki, and one in Fukui-ken.The later one is particularly interesting because it had "shiori" (usually referring to bookmarks, but apparently some kind of post-it) with movable days like Easter, Japanese months, and even some Japanese solar days, useful to farmers, written on them, and these were moved to match each year's calendar. There was no picture, only a description, so I am not sure how the shiori stuck to the calendar. It would have taken some training to use it, but presumably each year when the Japanese calendar was published (11/1) the user would count off the number of days in each month and put the shiori for the months in turn.
I haven't come across a description of what the Kakure Kirishitan communities did for a calendar. Does Turnbull discuss it? However, keeping track of the calendar and informing other members of the community about important days was one of the main responsibilities of the leaders. I suppose different groups did different things depending on their material, as whether they had a church calendar, and ability. One passage of the calendar description seems to say that somewhere in Kyushu they reused the last Japanese dates they had repeatedly each year. I also read somewhere that in the 1920's an old lady from the Takatsuki area, which would have been an isolated Christian community, reported that they started Lent at the time of a bird migration.

Besides this, the people who worked with the Dutch in Nagasaki and the Rangaku (Dutch learning) scholars must have gotten familiar with the Gregorian calendar. Every year the Kapitan had a banquet "on their New Year, which is twelve days after the Winter Solstice," and some Japanese, as interpreters, also attended. From 1794 (western calendar 1795) to 1837 rangaku scholars celebrated it in Edo as 新元会.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
I haven't come across a description of what the Kakure Kirishitan communities did for a calendar. Does Turnbull discuss it?


Yes, he does at length and it's pretty interesting. I'll try to post a summary over the weekend.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Bethetsu wrote:
I haven't come across a description of what the Kakure Kirishitan communities did for a calendar. Does Turnbull discuss it?


Yes, he does at length and it's pretty interesting. I'll try to post a summary over the weekend.
I am looking forward to it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turnbull starts out by explaining that the Jesuits continued to print a Church calendar (using Western dates) in Japan every year until 1618. After that, they were smuggled in from Macao until 1634. The 1634 version was called 'Bastian no Higuri' (the calendar of Bastian, a 1659 Martyr) based on a story of Bastian getting a vision of his master San Juan-sama who passed on knowledge of the calendar to him. So, even though crediting it to Bastian is likely false, it became known as the calendar of Bastian-sama and was the basis for all the known versions of Kakure Kirishitan calendars. There are copies extant confiscated in 1787 by the Nagasaki magistrate among others.

There were two main communities of hidden Christians-those who considered the preservation of Holy Relics (nandogami) to be most important (mainly in north Nagasaki, Hirado, and Ikitsuki) and those who considered the preservation of the church calendar to be the guiding light (south Nagasaki and Sotome/Goto). French Missionaries in 1865 made contact with the latter. it seems the leader of the largest group is known as the Chokata (register official) and his main duty is converting the Bastian Calendar to Japanese lunar dates. Turnbull's description sounds much like the visual calendar Bethetsu posted, with work days, feast days, days of rest, days to perform certain tasks, days of abstinence, etc etc etc. So the calendar was obviously very important to the Kakure Kirishitan.

Turnbull goes on to describe the lunar calendar the Japanese derived from the Bastian calendar. It's still used today by the surviving handful of Kakure Kirishitan groups for religious purposes (except they do celebrate New Years eve on December 31, along with a handful of other days linked to New Years). Each group used a slightly different calendar depending on what type of local martyrs were celebrated-usually noting 27 to 31 special days. There are calendars from Tsuji, Ikitsuki, Sakaime, Ichibu, and a few other groups. The Ikitsuki calendar lists 31 days. I don't want to list them all, but many seem to be Shinto based and have little to do with Catholic religious holidays as I understand them-there's 'Safety of cattle' day, house purification, founder of the group, Children's Festival, making omaburi, recently dead, 40th-10th-3rd day prayers, prayers for worldly matters, local martyrs, midsummer gathering, etc etc etc. Obviously, the days that the non-New Years holidays are celebrated on change yearly vis-a-vis the Western calendar, although they don't change on the lunar calendar.

There's a lot more detail in Turnbull's Kakure Kirishitan book. It amazes me just how good Turnbull can be when he really wants to be-very well done, serious, and in-depth (and no doubt because it was based on a thesis he was actually going to be graded on...).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for your summary of Turnbull's calendar material.
I wonder if all those days you mention like "'Safety of cattle' day, house purification, founder of the group, Children's Festival, making omaburi, recently dead," were originally from the church calendar but reinterpreted when the original meaning was forgotten, or were Shinto festivals that were added.
Do the calendars have Easter (in kana: hasukuwa no tomihigo) and Christmas (御身のなたる)? Does he give the dates for those? Of course there must have been many variations with different places.

I probably will try to find the book in a library somewhere. Everyone agrees it is his best work and I would like to know more about the calendars, i.e. find his sources, which I assume he gives in his thesis. I found an article about a calendar which according to the colophon was copied in 1787. That is probably the one you mentioned. (But did Turnbull say it was copied in 1787 or confiscated in 1787?) I will write about it in a later post.


But Turnbull wouldn't be Turnbull without repackaging, would he? So you take the most interesting journal articles that you read for your thesis, add an introduction and someone's unpublished paper, print them straight from the original (including original page numbers), call it "Hidden Christians" though half is about "Open Christianity," add a HEFTY price tag, and you are all set!

http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Hidden-Christians-Papers-Japan/dp/1873410514

For the table of contents see these:
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=mbLFBhSZGAAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Turnbull+Japan%27s+Hidden+Christians&source=bl&ots=UpIPwvBBiu&sig=se7zzKOMlhfhN914q-0CZQV9rso&hl=ja&sa=X&ei=1O5qUMS8AcrWmAXF0ICQBA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Turnbull%20Japan%27s%20Hidden%20Christians&f=false

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=TGtLVJWKlCYC&pg=RA1-PA145&lpg=RA1-PA145&dq=Turnbull+%22Japan%27s+Hidden+Christians%22&source=bl&ots=iIXErZL2MC&sig=ei2_4tKqcuxiMWvOeX81NELQx_U&hl=ja&sa=X&ei=f6JqUMb8N-2ViQeYioDIDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA

By the way, last time I was down town I went to Kinokuniya and saw his "Samurai: The Japanese Warrior's [Unofficial] Manual". Remembering your review towards the bottom of the page at
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=5401
I looked at it. I do agree, it looks like fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Do the calendars have Easter (in kana: hasukuwa no tomihigo) and Christmas (御身のなたる)? Does he give the dates for those?


Yes, Agari ('Rising', which was Easter) was celebrated on 2m 3d. Gotanjo (Christmas) was celebrated on 11m 10d. This was from a 1988 Kakure calendar that still used traditional methods. It seems some of the days change from year to year in the modern era, but it's hard to tell from Turnbull's description if they did so in the Edo period-he's murky on whether they fixed the lunar dates in stone based on the Bastian calendar, or changed the lunar dates yearly so they would fall on the same date on the Western calendar. Since the leader of the calender groups made a big deal of preserving the Church calender and converting it, one would presume they used the latter method. I guess we'll know when you start talking about the Nagasaki calendar. One that does change is Gotanjo, now defined as being the Sunday before the winter solstice. My copy of Nengocalc doesn't go that far into Showa so I can't check to see if the 1988 date is right (a rough calculation using a different date comparison he gave for earlier in the year suggests it was Sunday December 18, which would be correct). Some dates now are now fixed to occur on the same lunar day, so they occur on different days on the Western calendar yearly.

Bethetsu wrote:
I found an article about a calendar which according to the colophon was copied in 1787. That is probably the one you mentioned. (But did Turnbull say it was copied in 1787 or confiscated in 1787?) I will write about it in a later post.


He says the calendar dates from 1787 and that it was confiscated from Urakami Christians by the Nagasaki Magistrate. So it appears the calendar was made in 1787 but the date of confiscation isn't clear. However, it would make sense that it would be the same year since one would assume that it would be the calendar being currently used that would be confiscated (but of course, you can't say that with 100% certainy).

Bethetsu wrote:
But Turnbull wouldn't be Turnbull without repackaging, would he? So you take the most interesting journal articles that you read for your thesis, add an introduction and someone's unpublished paper, print them straight from the original (including original page numbers), call it "Hidden Christians" though half is about "Open Christianity," add a HEFTY price tag, and you are all set!


That's classic Turnbull. He also did it with a book called something like 'Key Papers in the Samurai Tradition'-these are the only two Turnbull books I don't have. Some of us with access to JSTOR found that we could get pretty much every one of those 'key papers' for free. Since Turnbull claimed the book was put together for university libraries and academia, that kind of negates the whole purpose of it. These books used to 'only' be about $299, but even then were way overpriced even for an academic press.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsu, thank you for your detailed information.

I read Murakami Naojiro's 1942 paper "An Old Church Calendar in Japanese," in Monumenta Nipponica, which was apparently one of Turnbull's sources. (See JSTOR www.jstor.org/stable/2382712 , but I cannot get anything unless I go downtown and find a library that has the journal).

The article has a transcription of a Kirishitan calendar Murakami found and copied in the prefectural archives of Nagasaki in 1896. (For more details see http://laures.cc.sophia.ac.jp/laures/start/sel=9-1-3-2/)

The calendar gives Japanese dates only; the heading for each month says if it is long or short, and there is a second 7th month. These match exactly the 1634 Japanese calendar. Furthermore, 1634/2/19, "Pasukawa" was April 16, Easter Sunday, so there is no question that the original was made in 1634. Would this be the "Bastian calendar"?

The colophon says it was copied 1787/1/14 by Domingo ("Sunday") Ikusuke. Of course, it could have been copied many times in the 150 years and spread around. Murakami believes from the context of other documents in the archive, one dated 1793, that this copy was confiscated from the crypto-Christians of Urakami in the Kansei Era (1789-1801).


The calendar goes from 2/26 to 1/3 (March 25 to Feb. 20). The entries are like "[二月]廿六日 さんた丸やの御通け." (26th --Annunciation to St. Maria) It lists all Sundays ("と見ひこ”)and many other commemorations. For each entry Murakami also lists what he believes to be the Portuguese original with the G. calendar date, though there are some scattered names that he could not identify or are not in the standard Portuguese church calendar of the time. I was surprised by some things--Christmas Eve is the 5th Sunday in Advent, many Wednesday fasts, Good Friday not listed, also not Ash Wednesday (beginning of Lent) for 1635.

Murakami quotes J. Laures that the Church Calendar was printed in Japan by the Jesuit mission every year till 1618. He also says "I think the existence of the copy of Domingo Ikuske will allow the conclusion that the Church Calendars were sent from Macao regularly till 1634, and in spite of severe persecution distributed among the Christians in Japanese editions." But why did it have to be based each year on a calendar sent from Macao? I think it more likely that a yearly Japanese calendar was made directly from a perpetual Japanese calendar and copies were made and distributed. That certainly would be easier than translating all the names each year from a Portuguese calendar. An important matter like the calendar would not be left to the chance of its timely arrival each year from Macao. Furthermore, someone with the skill to transfer the Gregorian calendar to the Japanese calendar would probably be able to use a perpetual calendar. So I don't think this calendar shows there was contact with Macao that year. However, the lack of indication of the beginning of Lent 1635 does suggest they did not not know how to calculate Easter of 1635. So I would speculate that the perpetual calendar available to the calendar keeper in the 1630's had Easter tables only till 1634, and he did not have the skill to calculate Easter on his own, so he did not make a new calendar after that. (Perhaps the available Easter table went only to 1634 because it was the 1st year in the Easter Metonic cycle.) Of course, it might just be that they did not indicate the beginning of Lent in that way.

Murakami does not discuss at all about how the calendar was used--in 1942 probably nothing was known.
It would be difficult to use it as is year after year. Most years the Sundays would be wrong and there would be no i7 month. So the leader would have to at least work out the Sundays. Also perhaps the i7 dates would be moved to the corresponding day in 7m. The Japanese must have had a way to deal with anniversaries of deaths the occurred in intercalary months, and they might have done the same thing for this calendar.

Tatsu, you gave dates for Easter and Christmas used by a Christian group in 1988.
Christmas was the Sunday before the Winter Solstice, in 1988, Dec. 18. (11m 10d = Dec. 18 is right). That of course would be a change from the standard calendar, as Dec. 25 is just after the Solstice. (I wonder why before rather than after the solstice. At a guess, they tried to keep it on Dec. 25 for a while, but not understanding leap years let it get earlier and earlier for a few decades before freezing it. )

Also, Easter was 2m 3d in 1988. That was Mar 20, the day of the spring equinox. Could they have celebrated Easter regularly on the Sunday during Higan? That would have been a good way of hiding it.

I wonder if fixed dates were celebrated on the 1634 lunar days. Does Turnbull give a date for any of the fixed identifiable Christian festivals? Some of the days in the 1634 calendar are Annunciation 2/26 (March 25), Sts. Peter and Paul 6/4 (June 29), Assumption 7/22 (Aug. 15), All Souls' Day (the day for recently dead?) 9/12 (Nov. 2), St. Francis Xavier 10/12 (Dec. 2). If you have access to JSTOR, maybe you could check more of them.

What I really need to do is find a good article on this matter.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Would this be the "Bastian calendar"?


I would say 'yes'.

Bethetsu wrote:
I wonder if fixed dates were celebrated on the 1634 lunar days. Does Turnbull give a date for any of the fixed identifiable Christian festivals? Some of the days in the 1634 calendar are Annunciation 2/26 (March 25), Sts. Peter and Paul 6/4 (June 29), Assumption 7/22 (Aug. 15), All Souls' Day (the day for recently dead?) 9/12 (Nov. 2), St. Francis Xavier 10/12 (Dec. 2). If you have access to JSTOR, maybe you could check more of them.


Well, there's St Stephen on 11m 11d and St John on 11m 12d. None of the ones you mentioned (except maybe 'recently dead') appear on the 1988 calendar (the only one Turnbull gives actual lunar dates for). It does have days for Lent (12m 16d), Mid Lent Prayers (1m 18d), and Palm Sunday (1m 25d). Comparing it with the Nagasaki calendar, it appears the two are not as closely related as Turnbull implies.

If you PM me with an email address, I'll send you a copy of the 'Old Church Calendar' article.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Well, there's St Stephen on 11m 11d and St John on 11m 12d. It does have days for Lent (12m 16d), Mid Lent Prayers (1m 18d), and Palm Sunday (1m 25d).

Those have the same relation to Christmas and to Easter as they do on the standard calendars (Dec. 26 and 27; 45 days, 2 weeks, one week before Easter). (Domingo Ikusuke' copy does not have St. Stephen's day; it probably fell out along the way.)

The solstices and the equinoxes are among the "solar terms" 節気 of the Chinese solar year (the subject of my next thread Very Happy ). The lunar dates and times of the solar terms were marked on the Japanese calendars, as were the days of the week (曜日) of the 1st of each month, so it would have been relatively easy to determine dates of the Christian days that were based on solar terms.

But there is a wrinkle; if Easter is near the spring equinox, often Lent will start before the end of the previous Japanese year. Probably the calendar for the new year, normally published on 11/1, arrived before the beginning of Lent, so there was no real problem. However, I noticed that in the Domingo Ikusuke calendar, the solar terms near the beginning of January and February are listed in their place, though not given specific dates. As the length of time between solar terms does not change from one year to the next, given the information for one solar term, it is fairly easy to calculate the day of the week of the next term. So I think that the chokata may have used the solar term at the end of the year to calculate the day of the week of the Spring Equinox and then its difference from Easter (by whatever method they used) and then used this difference to determine the beginning of Lent even before the next year's calendar arrived.

Does Turnbull give any good Japanese sources for the Kirishitan usage?

Quote:
If you PM me with an email address, I'll send you a copy of the 'Old Church Calendar' article.
Thank you, but I did get a copy of Murakami's paper when I last went downtown, which is why I can quote it with confidence.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Does Turnbull give any good Japanese sources for the Kirishitan usage?


The only dates he really examines are two dates related to Christmas on the modern calendar. After rereading things, I get the feeling Turnbull didn't fully understand how the Kakure and Western calendars related, because he's very vague on information that one would need to compare the two. For example, he never comes right out and states whether the calendars printed/smuggled by the Jesuits into Japan were Western or Lunar calendars (this would include the Bastian calendar). I thought at first that they would be Western calendars, but the more I think about it, it seems more likely they were lunar (having been converted by the Jesuits for the Japanese).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does Turnbull give his sources for his descriptions of calendars used now?

There would be no real need to have yearly western calendars in Japan, I would think. But most people would want church calendars with lunar dates, and they had to be made every year at the end of the Japanese year, because until then you would not know how long the months of the next year were. The Ikusuke calendar gives the month length of the months of (Japanese) 1634, but not that of the first month of 1685, as when the original calendar was made, it was not known yet. Because of time constraints, I don't see how a lunar calendar could have been made in Macao, or the need for making one there.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Does Turnbull give his sources for his descriptions of calendars used now?


He states the one he used was from the Ichibu community and gives the source listed below.

He also gives several sources that apparently discuss how certain dates were arrived at and the church calendar in general...

Kataoka, Yakichi et al 1974 'Kinsei no chika shinkou', Hyouronsha, Tokyo

Yanagita, Kunio 1957 'Japanese Manners and Customs in the Meiji Era', Oubunsha, Tokyo

Harrington, Ann M 1978 'Japan's Kakure Kirishitan' unpublished PhD thesis, Claremont College

Tagita, Kouya 1954 'Showa Jidai no Senpuku Kirishitan', Nippon Gakujutsu, Tokyo

The Ichibu calendar source...

Miyazaki, Kentarou 1990'Ikitsuki Ichibu no Kakure Kirishitan no Shougatsu Gyouji', Junshin Joshi Tanki Daigaku Kiyou 27 33-52

This one studies the Tsuji community calendar...

Miyazaki, Kentarou 1988 'Ikitsuki Motofure Tsuji no Kakure Kirishitan no Shougatsu Gyouji', Nagasaki Dansou 74 13-41

In fact it looks like Turnbull used Miyazaki's works for a WHOLE LOT of his book (wink wink nudge nudge)...two pages worth of references in the biblo.
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