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lordameth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Having a PHD etc makes someone special???


Of course not. Having the letters "PhD" doesn't make someone anything in and of themselves. Rather, these letters are a marker that someone has extensive experience, technical skills, and knowledge. In the case of historians, this means, in particular, extensive experience and skills at evaluating sources, understanding the interactions of events and developments, etc.

Conrad Totman is not merely just another guy with a PhD - he is a widely, highly respected scholar of Japanese history, whose writings - his arguments, his evaluation of sources, his conclusions - are very highly regarded.

It is precisely the disrespect for the expertise of professional scholars that drove me away from being an editor on Wikipedia... Of course, it's always good to be critical, or skeptical, and to not just take things at face value. But, that goes for Perrin just as much as it goes for Totman's review of Perrin. Why do you feel so strongly inclined to believe Perrin, and not to believe Totman?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
Buy and read the book BEFORE reviewing it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0879237732/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1006228001&sr=1-1

Before anyone repeats what they have heard about this book I suggest that they buy a copy (less than $10 used), you should remember that this book was written before the internet was available and that at the time there were no other books in English solely about Japanese matchlocks, before this book most people had no idea that samurai used firearms and had no knowledge of the history of these guns. As with any other author on the subject of Japanese history, arms and armor there are some things that looking back over 30 years could be changed but what well known author on the subject can you not say the same thing about, Anthony Bryant, Ian Bottomly, George Stone all have written things that looking back could be changed, the point is that this book was the first of its kind and even now there are only two other books in English that I know of that are exclusively about Japanese matchlocks.


I misread your first post and thought that you hadn't read the book, so that's why I wrote a short explanation of it so you wouldn't have to listen to listen to the podcast episode just to know what it is wrong with it, which perhaps I should have let people who read the whole book do. I agree with you on principle that one should read a book before criticising it. However I felt quite confident in saying that the idea that the samurai made a deliberate decision to stop using guns was wrong. Every article and review I read that mentioned this and that was written by people with degrees in Japanese history was negative of this idea. It seems to me like the only books and articles that uses "Giving Up The Gun" as a source and presents it as accurate is written by people who haven't studied Japanese history so much, such as "Guns, Germs and Steel" or the book discussed here. The problem is of course that there are few works in English on the subject, as you points out, and that the more easily accessible and more well-known gets cited more. Much more research have been done and been translated since of course. One can't really blame Perrin for this. He seems to have done quite a lot of research for his book and it's of course good that he at least gotten some information about Japanese matchlocks out there, such as the fact that samurai used guns and the pictures I posted.

There is the phenomenon called "Dan Browned", when something seems well researched (and can actually be well researched), but is nonetheless full of errors that a layperson would miss but someone who have studied the subject easily sees (guess who it's named after). Perrin's book seems suffer a little bit of this. I can't say how much of the information is wrong (since I'm not an expert on the subject and haven't read the books) but from what have been posted here, I would say his conclusions are off the mark. Case in point, when I searched on "Giving Up the Gun" I found two reviews from academic journals. One was quite negative, that was Totman's review, and the other one more positive, that one was from The Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine. Judging from Totman's and Waterhouse's review the book it seems like it was well known that among Japanese historians that the samurai didn't “give up guns” even back then. Perhaps if Perrin had contacted some historians for information, he could have written a more accurate book.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about Samurai Archives fix the glaring errors in their own version of the subject.

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Teppo#_ref-0

Quote:
The introduction of the European matchlock began in 1545, during the appropriately named Sengoku period ("Period of the Country/Provinces at War"). At this time Japan had found a trading partner in the Europeans. Spaniard and Portuguese sailors who had sailed through Indian and Asian oceans had crash-landed on the small island of Tanegashima, in 1543. "While on this island the Portuguese had offered one of their matchlock rifles as a gift to the local lord"[1]


The matchlock was introduced to the Japanese in 1543 by all accounts not 1545, I have never seen any mention of Spanish sailors being involved, were did that information come from? From everything I have read the Daimyo of Tanegashima island ( Tanegashima Tokitaka) purchased two matchlocks from the stranded Portuguese, I have not read any mention of them being "gifts".

Quote:
Manufacturing of this new firearm was simple; the barrel of the rifle was simple to create, simply by wrapping hot iron around a rod and force welding it shut made it, then fitting it into the stock of the gun. The gun’s firing mechanism was made from solid brass


Simple to manufacture? Simple for who, expert metal smiths who trained their whole lives, not to mention the smelting of the iron sands to create the metal in the first place and the expert wood workers who made the stocks, all this work being done by hand. What scholarly text did that information come from?

I suggest that you look at this article from the National Museum of Japanese History to see how easy it was to manufacture a tanegashima. Your version is not correct at all, it was a very complicated process from start to finish, your version does not do justice to the craftsmen who made these weapons (most were signed in the same way a sword was signed when finished, the stocks were often signed by the stock maker as well).

http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/english/publication/rekihaku/114witness.html

Does this look "simple"?



Last edited by estcrh on Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Any dumb schmuck who believes Japan and its samurai class gave up guns in the Edo period is indeed a dumb schmuck. I just came back from visiting the site of an Edo period gunsmith in Sakai, Osaka. The area was still producing guns well into the Bakumatsu era.

Estcrh, you are right about the errors in the SA material, but quit being such a fracking hot head about things, ok? Chill out, please.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
How about Samurai Archives fix the glaring errors in their own version of the subject.

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Teppo#_ref-0

OK, I rewrote the first paragraph based on the Teppô-ki. However, I know absolutely nothing about firearms, so I cannot say anything else about them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:


Estcrh, you are right about the errors in the SA material, but quit being such a fracking hot head about things, ok? Chill out, please.
How am I being hot headed? I am simply pointing out the glaring misinformation contained in the Samurai Archived Japanese matchlock article, which by the way should not have any of these mistakes considering all the abundant research and information available on the subject. I hope this situation will be rectified soon as people are already quoting the article, I think that considering the way Perrin's book is being thrashed here for not being accurate the least you can do is provide a first class, WELL researched article that will contain only reliable information so that people will have an alternative to the now thoroughly discredited book mentioned here.

I noticed that none of the sources for your article comes from the other well know books on the subject and that no one here mentioned them as alternatives to the scorned book. I suggest using them in order to get a broader view of the subject.


Olof G. Lidin "Tanegashima-The Arrival of Europe in Japan"

Shigeo Sugawa "THE JAPANESE MATCHLOCK" (English and Japanese versions).

Rainer Daehnhardt "Espingarda feiticeira: A introdução da arma de fogo pelos portugueses no Extremo-Oriente = The bewitched gun : the introduction of the firearm in the far East by the Portuguese" (Portuguese and English in one book).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
The matchlock was introduced to the Japanese in 1543 by all accounts not 1545, I have never seen any mention of Spanish sailors being involved, were did that information come from? From everything I have read the Daimyo of Tanegashima island ( Tanegashima Tokitaka) purchased two matchlocks from the stranded Portuguese, I have not read any mention of them being "gifts".


Bethetsu's fixed this; I believe the author of the article probably meant to say that matchlocks were first produced by the Japanese in 1545, not introduced. The daimyo did indeed buy the guns, but it may have been in the form of a gift exchange, probably much like the 'trade' of a daughter to learn the secrets of the sealing the barrel. Not sure where the Spaniards might have come from Wink .

estcrh wrote:
Simple to manufacture? Simple for who, expert metal smiths who trained their whole lives, not to mention the smelting of the iron sands to create the metal in the first place and the expert wood workers who made the stocks, all this work being done by hand.


That's right-'simple' is a relative term. Making a tanegashima does indeed look difficult and complex to me. Then again, baking a cherry pie from scratch looks equally difficult and complex-to me. But it's child's play for any number of bakers, just like making a tanegashima would have been viewed as simple by skilled Japanese blacksmiths. What seems to be magical for people who can't do something is just a job for people who can. Nevertheless, I've rewritten the passage to more accurately reflect just who the process was simple for.

estcrh wrote:
I am simply pointing out the glaring misinformation contained in the Samurai Archived Japanese matchlock article, which by the way should not have any of these mistakes considering all the abundant research and information available on the subject


The vast majority of the Wiki articles were written 15 or so years ago, long before there was much information on this sort of thing available on the web (which is why the SA's creators did it in the first place-so there would be info). It's sort of like the online equivalent of Sansom's History Of Japan-it was groundbreaking, but some of the info is dated, and the Wiki states that errors will crop up in it and asks people to report them (like you did). I still find it difficult to believe how much good information Seal and West managed to get up in such a short period of time, much of which needed to be translated first-the amount of articles they posted was huge. There'd be even more if Wikipedia hadn't come along and gotten in the habit of stealing all of them. Remember, no one on the SA is paid to do what they do-everyone has real jobs and we contribute when we can, contributing our limited spare time to the cause of better understanding Very Happy . When we find something wrong, we change it-no one here's afraid of admitting that something's wrong and changing it, which seems to be a real problem for a lot of people with a more casual interest in history.

I'd also point out that no matter how many errors one might find in the Tanegashima entry, it in no way affects the evaluation of Perrin's work. I do own the book, and I have read it, and the central premise couldn't be more wrong, for all the reasons given in the Totman/Waterhouse reviews. I've noticed you haven't actually commented on any of the issues Totman or Waterhouse brought up, but rather just personally attacked one of the posters (probably why Obenjo mentioned being a hot head,although you might not have meant it that way) and pointed out some errors on one of the Wiki articles. If you disagree with Totman's or Waterhouse's reviews, can you tell us why? It would help everyone to better understand your position.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
If you disagree with Totman's or Waterhouse's reviews, can you tell us why? It would help everyone to better understand your position.


I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone and I could care less what Totman or Waterhouse have to say on the subject, I simply asked anyone here who has actually read the book in question to state some facts from the book that have been proven to be categorically false or that they believe to be false, that should be easy, does anyone here have a mind of their own or do Totman and or Waterhouse do your thinking (and research) for you?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
How about Samurai Archives fix the glaring errors in their own version of the subject.


So, because one of the authors here made a mistake in assessing the technical skills required to manufacture a matchlock, that validates Perrin's thesis that guns were "given up"? I don't understand your logic at all.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
am simply pointing out the glaring misinformation contained in the Samurai Archived Japanese matchlock article, which by the way should not have any of these mistakes considering all the abundant research and information available on the subject.


Thanks for pointing out a mistake. However, if you don't see the difference between getting technical details wrong (which happens) and promoting a thesis which perpetuates inaccurate mythologies, then I can't help you.

Quote:
I hope this situation will be rectified soon as people are already quoting the article, I think that considering the way Perrin's book is being thrashed here for not being accurate the least you can do is provide a first class, WELL researched article that will contain only reliable information so that people will have an alternative to the now thoroughly discredited book mentioned here.


Once again, Perrin's book isn't being "thrashed" because he got some details wrong. His fundamental thesis is demonstrably incorrect, yet because people aren't well-read enough to know that, it perpetuates inaccurate mythos about samurai, bushido, and their attitudes towards guns...attitudes that get further perpetuated in movies, and become of a global consciousness about samurai which is complete fiction. Somehow I don't think anyone is perpetuating myths that "guns are easy to make" based off of an SA wiki article. You equating the two very much DOES make you sound like a hot head. Thanks for the correction, but you're comparing a mountain to a molehill.

Quote:
Olof G. Lidin "Tanegashima-The Arrival of Europe in Japan"


This book has it's own issues, and I've just finished reading it and am working on a review. To summarize, though, the technical information is great, but the organization of the book is pretty bad, and it goes off in several different directions at the expense of the whole. But absolutely, I would recommend this book for detailed knowledge about guns in Japan and their spread.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:
If you disagree with Totman's or Waterhouse's reviews, can you tell us why? It would help everyone to better understand your position.


I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone and I could care less what Totman or Waterhouse have to say on the subject, I simply asked anyone here who has actually read the book in question to state some facts from the book that have been proven to be categorically false or that they believe to be false, that should be easy, does anyone here have a mind of their own or do Totman and or Waterhouse do your thinking (and research) for you?


Look, I've told you at least 3 times I've read it several times. You're really pushing it. Cool down and get a grip. If you cannot calm down and stop being insulting, you will be gone.

You haven't addressed any of the criticisms of Perrin's work AT ALL. Not by me, nor by anyone on this board, nor by Totman or Waterhouse. Saying things like "Does having a PhD make you special?" doesn't do anything to address the criticisms of Perrin's book. You asked why people didn't like it. We've told you, ad nauseum. You've proceeded to get upset and insult people. Either you calm down and have a rational discourse, explaining why you disagree that Perrin's thesis is incorrect, or we end this right now.

You have the right to disagree. You have the right to point out mistakes (and that is welcomed) in the SA wiki. With that is the OBLIGATION to be civil and to give reasons for your position. That's how discussion works. If you simply go "oh yeah, well your article is wrong too!" you sound like a 7 year old.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
I could care less what Totman or Waterhouse have to say on the subject...


If you could care less, that means you do care what they have to say-I assume you mean "you couldn't care less".

If that's so, I have to say, that's a really terrible and counterproductive way to approach the study of history. One always has to keep an open mind and be receptive to new evidence and viewpoints. Not listening to what someone has to say because it doesn't agree with ones viewpoints-well, at the very least it's counterproductive to learning. As Thomas Conlan (who has a great take on tanegashima in his 'Weapons and Fighting Techniques of the Samurai Warrior', and who also takes issue with Perrin's book) has said:

""With such critical spirit, it becomes possible to challenge one's cherished assumptions...It is always important to discover the evidence behind assertions and question one's beliefs-no matter how dearly that they are held."




estcrh wrote:
...does anyone here have a mind of their own or do Totman and or Waterhouse do your thinking (and research) for you?


Again with the personal attacks-tsk, tsk. And you betcha, we do think for ourselves. We had discussed this book and arrived at our own conclusions long before any of us had access to those two reviews. Why take an hour to write up our thoughts when Totman has already done it so brilliantly?

Lastly, I'd ask you from this point on to not make personal attacks in your posts and confine yourself to discussing the issues. It doesn't present you in a positive light and I enjoy the knowledge of weapons you bring to the board.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a lot of respect for Totman. I truly do. Regarding Perrin, I respect the size of his cajones for writing a book based not on fact, but based on falsehoods aimed at pushing a noble but idealistic notion that the world can rid itself of nuclear weapons just like the samurai ditched guns.

I have never read Perrin's book and doubt I will. Why? It is because his premise that samurai gave up using guns during the Edo period is so flawed, and I don't need Totman, Waterhouse or any other scholar to point this out to me. A trip to Sakai to visit a building where guns were made during the Edo period, or a trip to an Edo period castle and seeing the armory as well as defensive gun ports casts lots of doubt on Perrin's thesis. Also, even today, one of the teppô squads that was responsible for defending the westward approach to Edo Castle and was based near what is now Shin Ôkubo Station near Shinjuku, is honored with an annual parade of reenactors & an firing exhibition.

So based on Estcrh's obnoxious question regarding can people here think on their own and make their own conclusions? I think I just proved that and many of us do quite a lot of that here. All one has to do is read through the various threads and study groups and you can see a lot of great original analysis, ideas & conclusions.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
So based on Estcrh's obnoxious question regarding can people here think on their own and make their own conclusions? I think I just proved that and many of us do quite a lot of that here. All one has to do is read through the various threads and study groups and you can see a lot of great original analysis, ideas & conclusions.


I would pose the same question to him, as he doesn't seem to be questioning Perrin at all. I suppose if I'm going to be a lemming and simply go along with what someone tells me about a subject, choosing the English literature PhD with no ability to read Japanese and no background in Japanese history makes MUCH MORE SENSE than choosing multiple people PhDs in Japanese history.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't even know if Perrin visited Japan while "researching" his book. Seriously, any trip to an Edo period castle would provide proof that guns were still an integral part of the samurai approach to war. Sure, samurai didn't walk the streets hoisting matchlocks, but they certainly drilled with them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I must have wrote the core of the Teppo article 11 years ago so it may be outdated (thanks editors) but the procedure to make aa matchlock gun is simple, compared to say making a marble statue of David.Had it been difficult,there would have not been as many produced. My outdated research is by no means a reflection of the SA as a whole.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I must have wrote the core of the Teppo article 11 years ago so it may be outdated (thanks editors) but the procedure to make aa matchlock gun is simple, compared to say making a marble statue of David.Had it been difficult,there would have not been as many produced. My outdated research is by no means a reflection of the SA as a whole.


I wonder sometimes about the wiki. It has no articles for yumi or yari, but articles for Shogun Sexecutioner and Shogun Sexecutioner II WTF??
I don't take that as a sign of lack of quality, just a bit of... uneven coverage.

On the ease of manufacturing, it may be relatively easy for a skilled smith. The process could have gotten more complex as time went on to make sturdier barrels. If I remember correctly, the Teppo-ki said that the Tanegashima smith ordered to copy the guns the Portugese brought with them only had problem with making the screw threads in the barrel for the breech plug. The secret to this he trade with his daughter. Reliability of this account is of course debatable.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thunberg wrote:
I wonder sometimes about the wiki, it has no articles for yumi or yari, but articles for Shogun Sexecutioner and Shogun Sexecutioner II WTF??
I don't take that as a sign of lack of quality, just a bit of... uneven coverage.


That's what happens when you have a handful of people to do a task, rather than the thousands or more of when you outsource it to the public. For all of my participation here, I've never authored one of the wiki articles, because I don't have the time or energy. I applaud those that have done so, or transferred articles from the old SA site. But yeah, you're not going to have something for every bit of information out there, because there are 5 people writing for the Wiki, not 50,000.

The "movie" articles...well, let's just say I'd rather focus on more useful stuff, but that's not my call.

Someone like estcrh is obviously well-read on the technical side of weaponry, and would be a perfect person to put together articles on those sorts of things. No one here has had an issue with his technical knowledge, only his defense of Perrin's misguided and under-researched thesis, and his dodging any criticism of Perrin by both attacking people who respond to him and changing the subject to other things.

I get it, I get frustrated too when I read something that gets what I consider "basic facts" wrong. But there's a difference between "basic fact--making a gun isn't a simple thing" and "basic fact--samurai gave up guns during the Edo period because they thought they were dishonorable." No one can be an expert on everything, but someone writing about guns in the Edo period should be able to catch the fact that they were not, in fact, "given up".

As a student of military tactics, it's frustrating to me when I read an account of Nagashino that talks about the Tokugawa troops "being given the forward position" as a cultural nicety, because they are the local troops and therefore it's an honor and custom to let them be forward in the battlefield. No, while that may have something to do with it, it's more the fact that you let the guys who know the area go first, and you follow them. In the case of Nagashino, they're conducting a screen line forward of the main Oda defenses to keep the Takeda from observing their preparations. What takes me all of 15 seconds to deduce from reading the text and looking at the map would never dawn on someone without any military experience, which includes the vast majority of PhD's writing about it. Does that mean I get angry about it and discount everything they write? NO, it means I have a unique perspective to add detail to the discussion.

estcrh could do the same thing, but for someone of his obvious technical knowledge, he seems more interested in defending someone who wrote a book about guns, simply because not many books about guns have been written. He also seems to be dismissive of Japanese historians, because they don't focus on the material details of what he considers important (weapons). Perhaps in his world it's a greater sin to say "making guns is simple" when it is certainly a complex process than it is to say "guns were given up" when all actual historical evidence points to the contrary. I certainly don't understand why he keeps demanding if anyone has read it, and then when multiple people tell him they have, he ignores their criticisms of the book.

Perrin's thesis is fundamentally and demonstrably wrong. Being one of the few books about guns in Japan doesn't change the fact that the entire premise of the book is flawed. It's a damaging book, because I see it quoted often by people who don't have a clue about Japanese history and cannot fathom the fact that a book might have been written and published on a subject that could be wrong about it. THAT is why I dislike it so much--because it has done significant damage to the global understanding of Japanese history that requires much more work to undo than it did for Perrin to write his book.

Somehow, I don't think that the SA putting "guns were relatively simple to make" on the SA wiki is going to have the same sort of negative impact on scholarship.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
That's what happens when you have a handful of people to do a task, rather than the thousands or more of when you outsource it to the public. For all of my participation here, I've never authored one of the wiki articles, because I don't have the time or energy. I applaud those that have done so, or transferred articles from the old SA site. But yeah, you're not going to have something for every bit of information out there, because there are 5 people writing for the Wiki, not 50,000.


Totally understandable. Wikipedia have lots of articles because it's easy to edit there and the fact they are well known draws people to it. Leads to much information, but quality can suffer. SA wiki has fewer editors and they have limited time and energy.


Quote:

As a student of military tactics, it's frustrating to me when I read an account of Nagashino that talks about the Tokugawa troops "being given the forward position" as a cultural nicety, because they are the local troops and therefore it's an honor and custom to let them be forward in the battlefield. No, while that may have something to do with it, it's more the fact that you let the guys who know the area go first, and you follow them. In the case of Nagashino, they're conducting a screen line forward of the main Oda defenses to keep the Takeda from observing their preparations. What takes me all of 15 seconds to deduce from reading the text and looking at the map would never dawn on someone without any military experience, which includes the vast majority of PhD's writing about it. Does that mean I get angry about it and discount everything they write? NO, it means I have a unique perspective to add detail to the discussion.


Something similar seems to me be behind Perrin's reasoning*. He noticed that the Japanese used lots of guns, and then gun usage went down when Japan gets unifies, he draws the conclusion that it was primarily because the samurai found guns unaesthetic and crude. Not thinking that this could be for practical reason.

* Again, I have not read the whole book, but I found out I can make a distance loan for it through my university library, so I will do that. Flawed as it may be, it's at least short.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you were an Edo period samurai, you wore two swords as a sign of your status at the top of social pyramid. Wearing two swords is a lot more practical in daily life than lugging an aquebus/matchlock around everywhere you went. Pistols, while they were manufactured, just weren't as common as longer barreled guns and had less significance from a military standpoint, which is how the use of guns was viewed.

Also the flow of guns into Edo was regulated strictly for political means. Guns could cause a lot of trouble for the bakufu if in the hands of would be rebels or assassins.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about this...I will sent a copy (used), at my expense, of this evil, forbidden book to one person here who has not actually read the book, as long as they will post their own thoughts on the book here to be discussed. After a through thrashing and dragging through the mud the book can then be disposed of in the usual manner...burned, thrown in the trash, donated to a satanic coven etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
How about this...I will sent a copy (used), at my expense, of this evil, forbidden book to one person here who has not actually read the book, as long as they will post their own thoughts on the book here to be discussed. After a through thrashing and dragging through the mud the book can then be disposed of in the usual manner...burned, thrown in the trash, donated to a satanic coven etc.


How about you address what has already been brought up by the people who HAVE read the book, to include myself and Tatsunoshi? You keep sidestepping the criticisms leveled at it by focusing on everything else. I've read it. Tatsunoshi has read it. Totman and Waterhouse obviously read it.

Tell us why we are wrong. Tell us how Perrin's Thesis (that the samurai gave up/banned guns in the Edo period) is correct. Explain why you trust the word of an English literature PhD with no background in Japanese language or history over 2 PhD's in Japanese history (Totman and Waterhouse), 2 people with MA's in Japanese history/studies (myself and lordameth), multiple people who live/have lived in Japan and read Japanese (all the above plus Tatsunoshi, Obenjo, Kitsuno, etc.) and have pointed out very specific details that demonstrate no such "giving up the gun" took place.

It's simple--you cannot. No one here needs to go any further in detailing anything, because the entire theme and conclusions of the books is absolutely and abjectly false.

I find it amusing that you continue to ignore any arguments put forth by anyone, and you ask someone who hasn't read the book to read it and give an opinion. My assumption is that you want an "untainted" opinion--the problem with that is to have an untainted opinion, one would have to start with no knowledge of the Sengoku and Edo periods at all, because if you had that knowledge, you'd know that the samurai didn't give up guns out of some "honor" thing at all.

My offer still stands to go through the book in detail and point out everything that's wrong, but you don't want that. You appear to want someone who can't do that. If you continue any further without actually addressing the criticisms of the book already given, then this discussion is pointless.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
Have you actually read the book, do you have a copy, if so can you or anyone here articulate a clear precise reason why you believe the facts contained in the book are false. How about a quote from the book that can be proven as inaccurate or false etc, not what you believe the author was trying to say.
I said it right here but so far no one has taken me up on it, so i will say it again, if you have read the book and can post some text from the book which you believe to be false then please do so. If not the maybe someone who has not read the book yet would like to give it a try.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:
estcrh wrote:
Have you actually read the book, do you have a copy, if so can you or anyone here articulate a clear precise reason why you believe the facts contained in the book are false. How about a quote from the book that can be proven as inaccurate or false etc, not what you believe the author was trying to say.
I said it right here but so far no one has taken me up on it, so i will say it again, if you have read the book and can post some text from the book which you believe to be false then please do so. If not the maybe someone who has not read the book yet would like to give it a try.



Okay, this is pointless. You're not going to address the criticisms, you're simply going to continue in this loop. Got it. You have fun believing that the samurai gave up guns in the Edo period. Go for it. Because THAT BOOKS SAYS SO, it must be so.

You haven't addressed ANYTHING. You have simply said "oh yeah, well, have you even READ IT?" like you're a 7 year old. Several of us have. Several of us have also given you plenty of counter examples that contradict the central thesis of the book. You are choosing to not respond to any of the very direct criticism of the book, because apparently you think the only way it can be disproven is a line-by-line deconstruction. I've offered to do that--and yet again, you ignore the offer.

You don't seem to have a clue how you sound right now by defending Perrin as if it a religious text. Rather than demanding any of us spend hours of our time deconstructing his text, how about you demonstrate to us, since it's pretty much you and Perrin against ALL OF JAPANESE ACADEMIA, that Perrin is correct? Please provide evidence outside of Perrin that the Japanese did in fact give up guns. That would be a more effective technique for debating this, rather than cyclically repeating over and over that "no one has read the book" when we keep telling you that many of us have.

I'm sorry I can't detail from memory what exactly Perrin wrote on page 24. For crying out loud. I've told you I would DO EXACTLY THAT if you sent me the book, taking up MY TIME to do this. I'm not spending money on a book I've already read that I think is abjectly wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Yes, I've read the book. No, I don't own a copy, because I don't like to pay money for things so badly done.
So obviously you can not post any text from the book that you seem to despise so much. If you do not have a copy then you are not really able to discuss text in the book which you believe is false and misleading now can you? Well the offer stands even for you, I will send you a copy and then you can participate in this discussion without relying on your memory and other peoples opinions and beliefs on what the books says and does not say.
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