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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, hefty price tag for a non-academic book. And only sold on Booklocker (POD publisher)? Does look like it has a lot of color photos and visual aids. I'll be passing for now as much as I'd like to check it out for the SA blog.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A quick look at what he wrote reveals what seems to be devastating errors--his chronology is all wrong--he doesn't know if he is using the western or the Japanese calendar dates. And this is not just a purist concern of mine, it seems to affect his understanding of what is going on.


He says p. 38 that "On August 10 [Mitsunari's army] passed through Sekigahara." Looking at other material, it is clear that this date is not the western calendar date of August, but 8/10 in the Japanese calendar (September 17). So, does that mean he regularly changes, for instance the Japanese Eighth Month to August? It may not be a good idea, but some people do it. But in this case it is clear he does not.
He goes on… p. 40 Mitsunari, to deter defections, decided to take hostages in Osaka, starting with Hosokawa Tadaoki's wife Gracia, and she was killed, "August 25." Now, that is the western date--the Japanese date is 7/17. So I must conclude he does not really know which date system he is using either here or above.
This seems clear and is MUCH worse for his whole story on p. 42 where he writes
"Mitsunari then attempted to recover his lost ground through propaganda. Five days later he prepared a list of 13 grievances against the Tokugawa…dated the 17th day of the seventh month (August 30), 1600…"
Now this list marked the start of Mitsunari's campaign, 7/17, as a justification for it; it was not something issued part way through it to bolster support. With such a fundamental misunderstanding of the chronology of events, how can one use this book? (I would also complain trivially, that 7/17 was August 25, not Aug. 30.)

Also, he apparently doesn't discuss the issues brought up in the accusation list until here, in the middle of the movement, which does not seem to be a very good way to organize the book, so I wonder about his organization. On p. 43 he talks about criticism of Ieyasu as a result of the list, which "caused further rifts between Ieyasu and the other regents." Only after the list of grievances was published?? The rifts had been growing over a year before.
Then there are some smaller errors--I don't think the system of post towns and Honjin, Waki-honjin were established yet. I don't think the Nakasendo was called that yet. And Gracia did not become Christian during her exile, but in Osaka. Maeda Toshinaga was not a Bugyo but a Regent (p. 43).
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stop it, Bethetsu! You're just making me want to order it now Laughing , because I do love a good train wreck.

And BTW, this is probably as good a time as any to thank you for all the calender threads. The knowledge I gained from them has been incredibly useful the more I delve into detailed sources. It's amazing how many of even the good ones can't keep their dates sorted out.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Sekigahara Reply with quote
I thought i had struck gold whilst in Tahoe and i found "Lord Of The Golden Fan "by Christopher Nicole for a buck ,i was struck by the bodice ripping cover with a Sir Francis Drake type standing on the edge of a river with a Japanese maiden at his feet .
The book about lusty Will Adams (better than the Needle Watcher, but not from an academic view ) covers Sekigahara and in fine form ,nice bloody battle scenes as well .

I like Chris Glenn, though we disagree on Musashi and the 47 Ronin .
He stated once he was drawn to Sekigahara because Musashi was there (though the man's earliest bio states he was in Satsuma with his father Munisai ), when i read that statement alarm bells rang .

I think Chris should maybe have taken the Christopher Nicole route and given us a fast moving blood soaked epic of war instead .
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
I like Chris Glenn though we disagree on Musashi and the 47 Ronin .
He stated once he was drawn to Sekigahara because Musashi was there (though the man's earliest bio states he was in Satsuma with his father Munisai ), when i read that statement alarm bells rang .


I had a feeling from looking at some of the pics posted earlier in the thread that the 'Musashi at Sekigahara' fiction was going to be a featured attraction. It's amazing it's still accepted even though it's pretty well established now that it was cooked up to explain why Musashi was never taken on as a vassal during most of his life (since in theory anyone on the losing side couldn't be taken on by a daimyo, although lots of them were). And even worse, you get the whole 'Musashi distinguished himself and won great honors' added to the accounts even though there's not a single document that supports it. Personally, I always liked the take "Aoi Tokugawa Sandai" had on things, showing Musashi at Sekigahara hiding from combat and crouched down behind cover, cowering and completely terrified.

Even better are the documents (invoices, purchase orders, and letters) that came to light in the last 10 years that show the Yoshioka school closed down years before Musashi claims he wiped them out (they had decided textile trading was far more profitable than running a sword school). It appears Big Moose was not above inventing a tall tale to explain away the closing of a sword school in those pre-internet days when it was hard to check up on things. I'm looking forward to checking that out in more depth.

Lemon, where do you know Chris Glenn from? If you say the Ninja Dojo, I think I'm gonna facepalm because it fits everything I've seen from him so far. Then I'll double the chains on the fruit cellar. And BTW, thanks for the info on the "Golden Fan"-I'll have to find a copy. Can't be as cheesy as the "Daimyo" series, but I'll probably like it anyway.

AND THIS JUST IN...the wise and bountiful minister (my wife) informed me she bought me "Sekigahara" because "you know you want it". I always like hearing that Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Chris Glenn is probably unwittingly the torch bearer for the fine Turnbull tradition of propagating sammyrai history based on myths. The scholarship issues are another story all together. It's apparent if you follow his Facebook samurai and Sekigahara sites. His intentions are good, but it's clear he is a little gullible and buys into the myths. The insistence that Nobunaga's "death mask" is the real deal is an example along with the 47 Ronin and Musashi fanboy adulation.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Sekigahara Reply with quote
Through FB Tats ,i actually pm'd him a few times to ask when his book was coming out ?.
So glad the good wife is getting you the book Tat's because im really looking forward to the Shogun -Ki review .

Obenjo yes i forgot about the Nobunaga death mask ,really sad to fall for crap like that .

Christopher Nicole the author of Golden Fan usually churns out Mandingo rip off's with titles like Black Dawn ,Black Mistress and Ratoon ,as well as Bond like spy stories .
So you know this is as cheesy as a book can get .
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
Through FB Tats ,i actually pm'd him a few times to ask when his book was coming out ?.


That's a relief. His act was beginning to resemble the gospel according to Henrietta WAY too much for comfort. It's a shame to rip someone with his degree of enthusiasm and obvious love for the subject matter, but just because you want to write a book doesn't mean you should.

Speaking of which, as an aside, I’ve toyed with the idea of putting together a pop culture book that basically deconstructs all the myths of the samurai from Yoshitsune through Musashi and the Ronin to Ryoma. In the vein of other pop culture titles such as “Samurai Wisdom” and “Secrets of the Samurai” I’d call it “Samurai Crap”. I’d have to have Obenjo write the intro. I bet it would sell tons.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
Christopher Nicole the author of Golden Fan usually churns out Mandingo rip off's with titles like Black Dawn ,Black Mistress and Ratoon ,as well as Bond like spy stories .
So you know this is as cheesy as a book can get .


Just found and ordered a copy so I'm looking forward to it. It's been awhile since I read some truly horrible-yet-great old school samurai fiction.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
wicked iemon wrote:
Through FB Tats ,i actually pm'd him a few times to ask when his book was coming out ?.


That's a relief. His act was beginning to resemble the gospel according to Henrietta WAY too much for comfort. It's a shame to rip someone with his degree of enthusiasm and obvious love for the subject matter, but just because you want to write a book doesn't mean you should.

Speaking of which, as an aside, I’ve toyed with the idea of putting together a pop culture book that basically deconstructs all the myths of the samurai from Yoshitsune through Musashi and the Ronin to Ryoma. In the vein of other pop culture titles such as “Samurai Wisdom” and “Secrets of the Samurai” I’d call it “Samurai Crap”. I’d have to have Obenjo write the intro. I bet it would sell tons.


That is such a great idea and really needs to happen ,back on that old sad web page we no longer mention ,there was this nut who went by the name JVarela ,he saw himself as a modern Latino version of big moose .He went ballistic when i mentioned that Sasaki Kojiro as a name was really created in the 18th century by acolytes trying to promote their sword school ,as such we really have little idea who moose fought (and his students /boy toys murdered )save he was a possible young acolyte named Ganryu after his fencing style .
So the man went ballistic ,pointed out he had been to Ganryujima and paid homage at the mans grave ,to which i pointed out "tourist trap" ,the guy started sending me death threats ,demanded to know where i lived ? ect .

I really think this myth busting book is well needed .
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
wicked iemon wrote:
So the man went ballistic ,pointed out he had been to Ganryujima and paid homage at the mans grave ,to which i pointed out "tourist trap" ,the guy started sending me death threats ,demanded to know where i lived ? ect .

I really think this myth busting book is well needed .
I've had similar experiences in various corners of the internet. Self-styled modern sammyrai, ninjers, and McDojo customers really, really, REALLY don't like it when people suggest everything they've decided to believe is wrong. (They also have this curious "might makes right" mentality. "My sensei can beat you up and his fists trump your evidence, primary sources, and degrees." Summarizes 90% of these people's arguments.)

Honestly I'd be worried for anyone who wrote a mythbusting book.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Reply with quote
narukagami wrote:
Honestly I'd be worried for anyone who wrote a mythbusting book.


Don't worry. My hammers of justice are up to the task of dealing with them Wink

From what I understand, Turnbull never took any flack for his 47 Ronin book, a good sign.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is Chris G's post on Facebook yesterday regarding the use of firearms. Start your engines...

Quote:
Firearms! Tanegashima, Teppo, Hinawaju.

The guns used by the samurai were matchlock weapons known first as Tanegashima, after the island where a Chinese junk carrying Portuguese traders landed in a storm, and the name of the lord of the island, Tanegashima Tokitaka. Later the weapons were known as Teppo, and later, hinawaju.

Estimates have stated that in the 16th Century, a samurai archer could loose off over 15 arrows in the time it took to reload a single hinawaju. The importance of the weapon was soon realized, and Japanese smiths, once the problem with the manufacture of the breech screws had been overcome, produced them in their thousands. By the time of The Battle Of Sekigahara, there were probably more of these guns in Japan than in the entire world. In fact, by the end of the Edo period, there were over 200 gunsmiths across Japan.

First used by the samurai class, who soon realized their effectiveness and simplicity, they were ordered in bulk and shortly after, trained units of ashigaru (foot-soldiers) were equipped with the firearm, forever changing Japanese tactics and warfare. The weapons were proved in 1563 when used against the Kikkawa by the Amaka of Izumo. 3 years later, Takeda Shingen ordered his numbers of spearmen decreased, and in their place, increased the number of trained gunners. Oda Nobunaga effectively used the firearms in the 1570 Battle of Anegawa, and most effectively against the Takeda army in the 1575 Battle of Nagashino, with an army of 3,000 marksmen. In the 1592 Japanese invasion of Korea, 25%, or approximately 160,000 warriors were gunners.


Where to start? I can almost forgive him for mentioning the 3,000 "marksmen" at Nagashino, but that number has been seriously called into question as we all know. And the then writes, "In the 1592 Japanese invasion of Korea, 25%, or approximately 160,000 warriors were gunners." Holy Shingen's whiskers, Batman! The Japanese force that invaded Korea in 1592 only comprised a total of a little less than 160,000 men. Where on earth is he getting his numbers?

And the "Amaka" of Izumo? Sheesh. What's up with that? Sloppy. Plain and simple.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I can almost forgive him for mentioning the 3,000 "marksmen" at Nagashino, but that number has been seriously called into question as we all know.


Yes, because as WE ALL KNOW, whether you're reading the Shinchoki or the Shinchokoki, the numbers mentioned (3000 or 1000) only refer to a selected group, and aren't a statement of total numbers of soldiers carrying guns at the battle, so the real number of guns at Nagashino was probably in the range of 4500-6000 carried by the Oda alone, and that anybody saying only 1000 guns and using Fujimoto Masayuki as a source for that is not only misinterpreting the Shinchokoki but also Fujimoto himself, as he clearly outlines in his 2010 book on Nagashino.

But, I don't need to say that, because we ALL KNOW that, don't we? Laughing

Quote:
And the then writes, "In the 1592 Japanese invasion of Korea, 25%, or approximately 160,000 warriors were gunners." Holy Shingen's whiskers, Batman! The Japanese force that invaded Korea in 1592 only comprised a total of a little less than 160,000 men. Where on earth is he getting his numbers?

And the "Amaka" of Izumo? Sheesh. What's up with that? Sloppy. Plain and simple.


Sloppy, indeed. So he really is a Turnbull wannabe...

Still though, 25% as a percentage of forces armed with guns is pretty likely by 1592, as you can see forces that high as early as 1582 (Akechi Mitsuhide's forces, for example). His problem there isn't that 25% had guns, it's that he's saying 25% = 160,000, which would mean a total force of 640,000 invaded Korea. As this isn't Three Kingdoms China, that number is pretty ridiculous. 40,000 guns in a force of 160,000 total seems perfectly fine, considering we're talking about the combined mobilized forces of most of Western and Central Japan.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Yes, because as WE ALL KNOW, whether you're reading the Shinchoki or the Shinchokoki, the numbers mentioned (3000 or 1000) only refer to a selected group, and aren't a statement of total numbers of soldiers carrying guns at the battle, so the real number of guns at Nagashino was probably in the range of 4500-6000 carried by the Oda alone, and that anybody saying only 1000 guns and using Fujimoto Masayuki as a source for that is not only misinterpreting the Shinchokoki but also Fujimoto himself, as he clearly outlines in his 2010 book on Nagashino.

But, I don't need to say that, because we ALL KNOW that, don't we? Laughing
To clarify: All of us who have had chicken wings and Hoppy-shochu sets with you in Nagoya and in deep Mikawa CLEARLY know this. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A quick look through the book shows lots more errors (many dealing with math and statistics) and while there are some very nice photos, the reproduction is generally poor (cheap color printer poor-painted screen photos look terrible) and the maps will be very hard for some people to read (very tiny type). Sources are all secondary, pretty general stuff, lots of Japanese magazines and pop culture stuff. Would be pretty standard early Turnbull/Osprey fare were it not for the price and the poor photo reproduction.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Sekigahara Reply with quote
Worth blogging about though Tat's .
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