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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Well said. Tony, you da man!


I feel like I've said this before...no respeck.

/sigh
I think it is a natural, involuntary response to say that anytime Tony dials it in like a devastating air strike. I think Tony's new nickname should be "Arc Light". He is indeed da MAN.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is a really neat pic. The smoke caught in the wash looks like a winged gargoyle. John
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I think it is a natural, involuntary response to say that anytime Tony dials it in like a devastating air strike. I think Tony's new nickname should be "Arc Light". He is indeed da MAN.


Yes, but besides Ranger and myself, has anyone here ever actually called in an air strike?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, artillery and air strikes attached to the 1st, 3rd and 4th Battalions RCR in HFC training exercises, in the early 70's, but, being the poor Canadian cousins they were simulated. I did have a 100% success rate though. So basically exercises in grid co-ordinates and communication. John
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


Yes, but besides Ranger and myself, has anyone here ever actually called in an air strike?


Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, baby!
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Almighty, this is PBR Street Gang. Do you copy? Over..
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Yes, artillery and air strikes attached to the 1st, 3rd and 4th Battalions RCR in HFC training exercises, in the early 70's, but, being the poor Canadian cousins they were simulated. I did have a 100% success rate though. So basically exercises in grid co-ordinates and communication. John


I'll count it. Call of Duty does not count.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Yes, but besides Ranger and myself, has anyone here ever actually called in an air strike?


Yes, but besides me, has anyone here actually performed "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" at a Japanese karaoke bar?

As far as airstrikes, since I'm old, does sending in the observation baloons at Yorktown count?


Last edited by Tatsunoshi on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
That is a really neat pic. The smoke caught in the wash looks like a winged gargoyle. John


I call that pic "Angel of Death." Smile

And I've called in air strikes, but all in computer games. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought it looked like an eagle. Inkblots, anyone?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Back on track...

Bethetsu, that's really good work. I had no idea the traditional account was amalgamating two trips. It also transforms things from a 'fortuitous accident' to a trading strategy, further reinforcing the case that Europeans trading guns was common in the 16th century.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can see why one would try to amalgamate the Portuguese "Discoveries" and the Teppo-ki. But then one has to come up with various hypotheses to come up with the differences. The scenario you get is only a possibility. If you realized that, OK. But then to make a new hypothesis based on that scenario without going back to the sources and looking at them is not valid. When you get the Rekihaku statement
"The Portuguese could be on board, but the ship drifted to Tanegashima-island was Chinese one, a junk, because Gohô who was recorded to be aboard together was the name of a big boss of wakô,….From these points, Japanese matchlock guns were arrived from Southeast Asia by wakô, not from Europe."
Though apparently everyone agrees the guns themselves were made in Asia, the above implies that it was the wako, not the Portuguese who sold the guns at Tanegashima. But such an account contradicts the Teppo-ki at almost every point, excepting only there was someone name Goho involved. And the account in "The Portuguese Pioneers," (I wish I had "Discoveries") certainly does not suggest they were on a wako boat. Would the three Portuguese have gotten on the boat of the wako Goho to go from Siam with a cargo of skins for Chincheu and ended up in "islands unknown to them," whose natives "said that those island were called Nippon"? Certainly the wako knew all about Nippon.
If someone wants to argue the wako brought guns to Japan, fine, but leave out Tanegashima and the Teppo-ki.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems to be available here

http://tinyurl.com/d6lqgjm

I tried to download the PDF but it is taking a long time!

It is by Antonio Galvao or Galvano and there is an English version it seems by Richard Hakluyt.

Available here http://tinyurl.com/cfdkngo


Download successful - the mention is very short and is on pp 166 and 167 of the PDF, page 76 and previous of the original, starting No anno de 542.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello Heron! You have not shown yourself much lately. Thanks for the links.

As Heron wrote, the link is to a pdf of the original of Antonio Galuão's Portuguese work "Tratado que compôs…………..", and the other to an Amazon book of "Antonio Galvano --Discoveries of the World, from their first original unto the year of our Lord 1555, translated and published in England in 1601" which is a modern bi-lingual version. I was downtown and found a facsimile of the original English 1601 translation, but I did not have time to make a copy, so this link was useful.
To aid in the discussion, I have written out the English of the relevant paragraph (p. 92 in the facsimile, p 231 in the online version) adding from the Portuguese original in brackets.
In the yeere of our Lord 1542 one Diego de Freitas being in the realme of Siam, and in the citie of Dodra as captaine of a ship, there fled from him three Portugals in a junco (which is a kind of ship) towards China. Their names were Antony de Mota [Antonio da mota] , Francis Zeimoro [Francisco zeimoto] , and Antony Pexoto [Antonio pexoto], directing their course to the citie of Liampo, standing in 30 and odde degrees of latitude. There fell upon their sterne sch a storme, that it set them off the land, and in fewe daies they sawe an island towards the east standing in 32 degrees, which they do name Japan [Japoes], which seemeth to be the Isle of Zipangri [Sipangas], whereof Paulus Venetus maketh mention [of which writers say so much], and of the riches thereof. And this Island of Japan hath gold, silver, and other riches.

The plot thickens! I would note that this account does not give at all the same impression as "The Portuguese Pioneers," which may have used other materials, or Teppo-ki, or Lidin, even though he cited it.

I also was able to glance at Lidin, but not much. He starts off with an extremely interpretive (imaginative)account and used that as a basis for judging. For instance, he dismissed Tokoro's suggestion of two different arrivals by saying that only two Portuguese caused a stir in 1543, so only two Portuguese would have caused a stir in 1542 and they are the same event, even though as mentioned above, the Teppo-ki does not say there were only two Portuguese, it just gives the names of the two "head traders". (Anyway, Galvano does not say they went to Tanegashima.In fact, Tanegashima is about 30.75 degrees in latitude, not 32.) I wonder if there is anyone who gives the various accounts straight before trying to fit their theory in. I know there are some other accounts also, but I have not read them, and by now I don't trust any summary!


Last edited by Bethetsu on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello Bethetsu! I've been enjoying your investigative research on this thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I question the idea that the first matchlocks in Japan came via the Chinese or wako. Where would they have gotten them? I do not think the Portuguese traded them to the Chinese. Their relations were problematic to say the least. They may have captured some from booty after the 1st Battle of Tamao, but, how would wako have access to them? They certainly would have been kept by the officials and not dispersed to itinerant Chinese either. I must mention that these were rather harsh times in China for Portugal and I doubt trade in weapons would be promoted or even occur. Wako may have pirated some, a possibility I guess, I would need proof of more than a couple having been so if even one was. I do not think the wako were running around armed with matchlocks until much later. Chinese hand cannon and such, sure. The Portuguese themselves were pirates in China, not traders, unless you consider the slave trade. My thought is, it is most likely the introduction of the matchlock in Japan was by the Portuguese and not by wako or Chinese traders (sic). John
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