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Edo period Daimyo Plans to attack and Invade Luzon

 
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1991sudarshan
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:49 am    Post subject: Edo period Daimyo Plans to attack and Invade Luzon Reply with quote
Wiki says that Matsukura Shigemasu planned to attack Luzon in Philippines which was a safe haven for the Japanese Christians who fled Japan. He died in a hot spring, and rumours tell Shogun assassinated him, for being ambitious and over burdening the peasants .
Matsukura Shigemasa via Wiki

In the Samurai Archives, it is stated that Iyemitsu indirectly supported his plan of attacking.
Matsukura Shigemasa via SA

Unfortunately both the articles do not mention the specific sources. I wish some one could classify this.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Shogunate did unofficially support his plan for the invasion of Luzon. However, they didn't support his brutality and harshness in dealing with the peasants in his fief (Shimabara...uh oh). That gave rise to the rumors that the Shogunate had poisoned him, rumors that sprang up about pretty much any person of import who died in a strange place or unexpectedly. Most historians don't give this particular one much credence. And if the Shogunate did have him killed, seems like they were right, since Shigemasa and his son pretty much caused the Shimabara rebellion.
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1991sudarshan
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
The Shogunate did unofficially support his plan for the invasion of Luzon. However, they didn't support his brutality and harshness in dealing with the peasants in his fief (Shimabara...uh oh). That gave rise to the rumors that the Shogunate had poisoned him, rumors that sprang up about pretty much any person of import who died in a strange place or unexpectedly. Most historians don't give this particular one much credence. And if the Shogunate did have him killed, seems like they were right, since Shigemasa and his son pretty much caused the Shimabara rebellion.


Thanks for the input Tatsunoshi.
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Given the presence of the Chinese expat community in the Parían and Binondo areas in and around Manila at that time, would a Japanese assault on the island have prompted a reaction from the Asian mainland; or would it have been on the Spanish crown to try and deal with such an invasion by themselves?
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's somehwat of a moot point since from a logistical standpoint the odds of the Japanese (one single minor daimyo in particular) organizing an effective strikeforce to Luzon and then keeping it supplied would have been almost nil. A handful of Spanish ships would have reduced any Japanese invasion fleet to splinters, and even if the Japanese could have snuck troops in, could not have been resupplied.

Assuming the Japanese did succeed, given the economic difficulties and internal strife the Ming Dynasty was undergoing in the 1630's, I doubt they'd care very much about what was going on in Luzon (especially if the Japanese avoided attacking the Chinese settlements) or be able to do anything about it if they were.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Assuming the Japanese did succeed, given the economic difficulties and internal strife the Ming Dynasty was undergoing in the 1630's, I doubt they'd care very much about what was going on in Luzon (especially if the Japanese avoided attacking the Chinese settlements) or be able to do anything about it if they were.


Not to mention that the idea of protecting one's citizens overseas is tied to the concept of "citizenship", and is included in its modern form of the idea. Rather than "citizens", any Chinese in the Philippines at this time would likely have been considered "subjects", and not necessarily guaranteed protection by the current standards of today. The Ming government COULD have decided to step in to protect its overseas subjects in the interest of trade and so forth, or it could just as easily have said "well, they decided to leave our domains, it's their problem."

Bottom line, the Ming wouldn't have been under any "obligation" to "defend their citizens", so any interference in a hypothetical Japanese invasion of the Philippines would have been done purely on geopolitical/strategic grounds, and as Tatsu said, would likely have been impossible given the internal problems facing the Ming.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
The Ming government COULD have decided to step in to protect its overseas subjects in the interest of trade and so forth, or it could just as easily have said "well, they decided to leave our domains, it's their problem."


Yep, if they had decided to do anything, it would have been to protect their trade interests.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Indeed. We have to remember that these Chinese communities in Luzon were not in any way an arm of the state - they were just random people (I assume, mostly merchant families from south China) who decided to move out there on their own. So the state wouldn't necessarily be bothered if they were attacked...

Notice also, that right around the same time (1630s-1640), the Tokugawa shogunate shut down Japanese overseas activity - and made no effort to protect or otherwise take care of those Japanese living overseas (see Nihonmachi) who were screwed by this development.
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1991sudarshan
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
Indeed. We have to remember that these Chinese communities in Luzon were not in any way an arm of the state - they were just random people (I assume, mostly merchant families from south China) who decided to move out there on their own. So the state wouldn't necessarily be bothered if they were attacked...


Did these Chinese become Christians when they arrived in Philippines to please the Spanish rules ?
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Unfortunately both the articles do not mention the specific sources. I wish some one could classify this.


海外交通史話(Kaigai Kotsu Shiwa)1930 cites Shigemasa's plan on Luzon as referred from "Die Beziehungen der Niederländischen Ostindischen Kompagnie zu Japan".
It says Dutch Admiral of Batavia was going to provide ships to Shogunate.


Last edited by shikisoku on Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
1991sudarshan wrote:
Did these Chinese become Christians when they arrived in Philippines to please the Spanish rules ?


Those who converted to Catholicism were permitted to live in the Binondo enclave; those who refused to convert were kept in the Parían area near Intramuros instead.
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1991sudarshan
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately both the articles do not mention the specific sources. I wish some one could classify this.


海外交通史話(Kaigai Kotsu Shiwa)1930 sites Shigemasa's plan on Luzon as referred from "Die Beziehungen der Niederländischen Ostindischen Kompagnie zu Japan".
It says Dutch Admiral of Batavia was going to provide ships to Shogunate.


Thank you Shikisoku.
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