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Lord Shibata
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Nobunaga's Downsizing Reply with quote
What are people's thoughts on Nobunaga's reasons for firing Sakuma Nobumori, Hayashi Hidesada, and Ando Morinari in 1580?
Always thought this was a interesting grey area on why exactly these three at this same time. I know Nobunaga's letter claimed his reason being they weren't matching up to the deeds of Oda's other, better generals, but to be fair, they weren't the only lesser generals in Oda's army.
Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Nobunaga's Downsizing Reply with quote
Lord Shibata wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Nobunaga's reasons for firing Sakuma Nobumori, Hayashi Hidesada, and Ando Morinari in 1580?
Always thought this was a interesting grey area on why exactly these three at this same time. I know Nobunaga's letter claimed his reason being they weren't matching up to the deeds of Oda's other, better generals, but to be fair, they weren't the only lesser generals in Oda's army.
Thoughts?


I would guess it is due to results (or lack of results) and serves as clear message to all of his vassals to deliver results or deal with consequences.

At the other spectrum, Hideyoshi routinely signed up for the hard assignments and delivered which in turn helped him rise up the Oda food chain.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From 1580 until his death Nobunaga had revamped his vassal management completely. As for Sakuma Nobumori, he was banished along with his son. Just before the Honnoji Rebellion, Nobumori's son was allowed back into the Oda and served under Nobutada.


If you have Lamers's Japonius Tyrannus, it does go into great detail into Nobunaga's vassal management after the Araki Crisis.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Mino Big Three (Ujie Bokuzen, Inaba Ittetsu, and Ando Morinari) are a special case. They stayed as powerful barons in Mino. Even when Nobutada was transfered to Gifu in 1575, the big three stayed in Mino. They were not forced or asked to go to Azuchi at all. However, Ando Morinari was unfortunate to be a victim of Nobunaga's vassal change-up in 1580. Nobunaga's excuse was that Ando Morinari was not up to par.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Re: Hayashi Hidesada, though, it was said that he entertained thoughts of rebellion in Shinchoukoki?

Is there anyone with links to Nobunaga's letters or extra materials regarding this? Shinchoukoki is my only source right now and it's not really elaborate on this subject.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you have the English version of the Shincho-Ko ki, then you must read Jeroen Lamers's Japonius Tyrannus. It is a must read because it is the most complete bibliography on Nobunaga for the time being.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does it elaborate on this situation with Hidesada and the other vassals? I think I saw that book in the library a while back...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
Does it elaborate on this situation with Hidesada and the other vassals? I think I saw that book in the library a while back...


Do your best to get it from a library, since it's usually over $100 on Amazon...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I saw that >.< I was glad I found it at the library.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
I saw that >.< I was glad I found it at the library.


Great book. I have read it at least 3 times.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay, can't find the book. Back to the topic, was there any explanation at all as to WHY Hidesada was dismissed?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The recent podcast on Nobunaga and his retainers has some clues. One reason might be why Nobunaga got rid of Hayashi Hidesada was that he rebelled against him (teaming up with Oda Nobuyuki). Hidesada and Nobuyuki lost the Battle of Ino in 1556. Again, listen to the podcast and it should help you out. I think he wanted to get rid of him because enough was enough and it was time to add new blood.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TWENTY years after the rebellion happened? Why bother keeping the dude around then? I mean, did he try to rebel again? That's what Shinchou ko ki said...

Which podcast, at any rate?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The second Nobunaga podcast on his retainers. I assume he needed Hayashi Hidesada to help unify Owari. After all, he was well respected and capable.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A link to the podcast, please?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
www.samuraipodcast.com

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/samurai-archives-japanese/id430277324?mt=2

Probably episodes 79 and 81 will have what you're looking for.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And if the Nobuyuki revolt was the main issue, then the guy that should most definitely been fired as well should have been Shibata Katsuie Wink

It seems that the main reason was that those 3 simply wasn't making much use of the land they were given, Hayashi Hidesada appeared to have only taken up administrative / diplomatic roles for most of those 2 decades, and it's not like he was Nobunaga's best administrator while taking up a much higher pay. His eldest son Mitimasa dying early in 1573 didn't help. His 3rd son continued to serve Hideyoshi post Honno Ji though, and survived well into the edo period as a pretty significant samurai family (around 5000 koku )

Sakuma Nobumori's case is probably more interesting because right up until his dismissal he was still the head of the campaign against Ishiyama Hongan-ji, which finally surrendered shortly prior to this, he was probably expected a messenger to announce his reward for the effort and instead got the opposite news. granted, he basically didn't try to attack Hongan Ji at all, only surronding it, then again, that may have been an overall policy from Nobunaga's part anyway, since going right in and just slaughtering everyone would probably cause a lot of problems down the road (yes I know he doesn't always care but he did seem to never have pushed strongly to kill Kennyo. )

Andou Morinari case was even more of a eye brow raiser, because he had participated in most of the battle up until that point and unlike Sakuma never had any serious failures on the field, the official reason seem to be contacting the Takeda clan, but who the hell knows.

Some would guess that it's because Nobunaga's expansion method created an insatiable need for new land to award retainers, and aside from grabbing them from other daimyos, the easiest way would be of course, to fire dudes you don't feel were making good use of the holdings and give them to others.

It should be noted that there were a few other guys fired around that time as well, for example Isono Kazumasa, the hero of Anegawa (granted, on the other side) was also fired around this time.

Then again, by the same token many other guys could have / should have been fired, for example Takenaka clan, Shigeharu never gotten any direct awards from Oda anyway despite his reputation, and had died recently leaving a very young heir (6-7 years old) and a not much older cousin (around 17-18 year old at the time) as his guardian. meanwhile, his younger brother haven't done much in his time either,

And more importantly if you want a excuse, then Shigeharu right before he died directly disobeyed Nobunaga's order to execute Kuroda Yoshitaka's young son (the future Kuroda Nagamasa ) because at the time Yoshitaka appeared to have defected. Instead he hid him away in his estate. It was pretty obvious after Yoshitaka was recovered that hey man, wasn't his son suppose to be dead?

So it's complicated, I'm guessing Nobunaga's ultimate intention was to serve as a warning to other retainers to not get complacent, and he picked a few guys he didn't like for whatever reason.
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