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Bloodline of Shogun and Kanpaku

 
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hashiba_hideyoshi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Bloodline of Shogun and Kanpaku Reply with quote
I recently read at the "Aichi, Home of the Samurai" website that Hideyoshi couldn't get to become shogun because he wasn't a Minamoto bloodline? And he only managed to get the Kanpaku seat because he arranged for himself to be adopted into someone from the Fujiwara line.

I remember Ieyasu making claims to be part of the Minamoto line as well. So... no one who ISN'T from Minamoto line can become shogun? Is that some kind of unspoken rule or tradition or is that something like a law?
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's bunk. It's crap. It's completely wrong and one of the worst misconceptions in all of popular Japanese history. And this has come up before (hint: there's a "search" function), so I'll simply quote what I've said before:

Tornadoes28 wrote:
This is another shogun title related question or topic. Regarding Hideyoshi, from my recollection from the book Hideyoshi by Mary Elizabeth Berry, Hideyoshi did not have a desire to claim the title of Shogun. It is commonly believed that he was not able to claim that title due to not having the required Minamoto family lineage. But it is my understanding that if Hideyoshi truly wanted the title of Shogun, he would have taken it. I don't recall what the reason was that Hideyoshi preferred to use the title of Kanpaku.



me wrote:
You need to go back and re-read your Berry. Learn it. Live it. Love it.


Tornadoes wrote:
But recently I read in Totman's Ieyasu book this on page 62:...I know this book is slightly dated as it was published in 1982 but this raises so many questions.

First it reinforces the idea that Hideyoshi could not obtain the tilte of Shogun that he desired due to family lineage.


Me wrote:
I'm not going to say that Totman's an idiot, because some people around here (or who used to be around here) like him. But he's buying into a common fallacy. It's complete crap. Berry's got it right, as does Lamers in his discussion of Nobunaga.

The idea that "only those with Minamoto lineage could become Shogun" was a legitimizing tactic perpetuated by the Tokugawa regime well after Hideyoshi was gone. Nobunaga was of vaguely Taira lineage, though at one point he claimed Fujiwara descent. Lamers shows rather demonstratively that he was offered the title of Shogun by the court. He rejected it as he didn't want to be brought into and shackled by the system, preferring to work outside of it. Lamers speculates that at the time of his death he was debating accepting it, possibly because he felt secure enough in his power that the Court was no longer a threat, but a legitimizing force.

Berry makes the same case for Hideyoshi, in reverse. Whereas Nobunaga had decades of national level control under his belt and no inherent need of legitimacy lent by the court, Hideyoshi had none of his CV, and needed everything he could get ahold of to legitimize and secure his power base. He could have chosen Shogun, but with the weakness of the Ashikaga bakufu, "Shogun" didn't have much cachet to it. Hideyoshi wisely chose to align himself with and cover himself in the court. Being adopted as a Fujiwara was merely the formality he needed to take the Kampaku title; honestly, it's not that he had to be a "Fujiwara" per se, even though the Kampaku had mostly been Fujiwara--it's that he needed the tie/claim to Kuge status. Westerners get wrapped up in the familial ties and ignore the class ties involved.


Tornadoes wrote:
Third, although I am well aware of how adoption was used throughout Japanese history, I would not think that it would have been acceptable to use adoption in this situation to claim family lineage in order to be shogun. If it was that simple, Ieyasu could have done the same thing rather than supposedly concocting his family lineage to be "eligible" for the shogunal title.


Me wrote:
Ieyasu *DID* do the same thing. He had three genealogies prepared, because he was ready to do the same thing Hideyoshi did. He chose the Minamoto ties and the "Shogun" title in order to deliberately contrast with the Kampaku title held by Hideyori. Of course, we can also assume that he couldn't usurp the title of Kampaku with a living Kampaku in existence. Remember that when he took the title of Shogun in 1603, Hideyori was still the legal heir of Hideyoshi, still held the title of Kampaku, and still was politically viable enough that Ieyasu had to wait another 12 years to take him out. "Shogun" was not only a statement that Ieyasu's regime would be militarily/warrior based as opposed to court based, but simply what was available.

As to the Minamoto genealogy being important, let's remember something: at the time of the overthrow of the Hojo Shikken in 1333, the vast majority of the contenders for power to replace them were Minamoto kinsmen. They were powerful simply because their ancestors had been related to, and were supporters of, Yoritomo. Nitta Yoshisada, Ashikaga Takauji, etc. were by necessity members of the Minamoto extended family. The odds simply were that whoever came out of the power struggle to replace the Kamakura Bakufu would be Minamoto. It's also a logical assumption that at the time, they instituted a Bakufu and assumed the title of "Shogun" because that's what they knew and were comfortable with. Hence there's no actual logic to support any assumption that the "Shogun" was a higher position than the "Kampaku"; in fact, it's the opposite.



Tornadoes wrote:
]And finally, Totman states that Hideyoshi "concocted" an egregiously unpersuasive claim to Fujiwara ancestry in order to take the title of kanpaku. If he could concoct Fujiwara ancestry, than certainly he could have concocted Minamoto ancestry had he truly wanted the title of Shogun.


Me wrote:
It wasn't egregious or unpersuasive at the time it was done. It was simply a formality. Totman, and many like him, look at it through a Western lens and ignore the fact that rewriting lineages/adoption was as common as legitimate lineages. Nobunaga had his own sons adopted into other families so as to become the family heads and make them subordinates.

And the idea of Yoshiaki and Hideyoshi is laughable at best. Sounds like a TBS rekishi special gone awry.

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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also, Totman's biography of Ieyasu is horrendous. He's done other great work, but I personally wouldn't even want my screenname associated with that book, much less my real one.

And to add to my last point, Nobunaga having his sons adopted into other families in order to bring them under his aegis in a form of "hostile takeover" was not uncommon. See Suwa (otherwise known as Takeda) Katsuyori, for instance.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
It wasn't egregious or unpersuasive at the time it was done. It was simply a formality. Totman, and many like him, look at it through a Western lens and ignore the fact that rewriting lineages/adoption was as common as legitimate lineages.

While adoption wasn't as common, re-writing or embellishing lineages was as common in then Europe as in Japan, especially if the ancestor(s) was(were) almost a millennium removed from the present, like the bronze statues Innsbruck. A ruler claiming descent from King Arthur, would draw some skepticism, though not regarding the historicity, just the claim, but if you were powerful, most would go along with it.
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hashiba_hideyoshi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
It's bunk. It's crap. It's completely wrong and one of the worst misconceptions in all of popular Japanese history. And this has come up before (hint: there's a "search" function), so I'll simply quote what I've said before:


I tried, believe me. I couldn't find it. Either I'm looking with bad keywords or I missed the thread.

And... your link just sent me to the "quote post to reply" page O__o

Can you relink, please? I'd love to see the original discussion.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
Can you relink, please? I'd love to see the original discussion.


http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=4411
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hashiba_hideyoshi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
Can you relink, please? I'd love to see the original discussion.


http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=4411


Much thanks Very Happy
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