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heron
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you very much, Bethetsu. It is all much clearer now. Very Happy

I will move on to the next section which is かぐや姫の嘆き

ltdomer, are you going to join us?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
八月十五日計の月に出居てかくや姫いといたくなき給ふ人めも今はつゝみ給はすこれをみておやとも何事そととひさはくかくや姫なく/\云さき/\も申さむと思ひしかとも必心まとはしたまはん物そと思ひて今迄すこし侍りつる也さのみやはとて打出侍ぬるそ

Around the fifteenth day of the eighth month, Kaguyahime, seated in the moon(light), (or when the moon appeared) wept most bitterly. Unrestrained by the presence of other people she wept. On seeing this both her parents asked, shocked, ‘What is it?’Weeping, weeping, Kaguyahime said, ‘I intended to speak before now but I thought it would certainly cause you emotional confusion, but now the time has come. Is there anyway I could not speak of it?’

This was hard! The last two sentences are just a stab at the meaning. I see mu, tsu, and nu there in various conjugations but am not sure how to express them in English. And how would you convey the meaning of shika?

This is the text from U of V (the only one of the two Taketori texts that would open), but I actually worked from the Shirane textbook which is a lot easier to read.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Where did you get your text? I tried googling, but could not find it. It is more like a real manuscript text, especially with no nigori points. Much for fun than the U of V text from 1929 that I found.

heron wrote:
I see mu, tsu, and nu there in various conjugations but am not sure how to express them in English. And how would you convey the meaning of shika?

omoi-shika-domo …omoite -shika is the concessive (izen) of the past -ki, so "although I thought A, I thought B" so your "A but B" (…before now, but I thought…" is fine.

-mu is future aspect with relation to the surrounding, so usually "will" or "would," here "would."
môsa-mu to omoi-shika-domo "I thought I would speak, however

tamawa-n mono -n mono is for -mu mono so your "would" here is fine.
-mu often appears as -n. The problem is, in modern western Japan (and in jidai novels) -n is often the negative!

-nu and -tsu are both perfect, but here I am much less sure of myself. The books say -tsu tends to indicate a decision and so used with transitive verbs, while -nu tends to be something that happens naturally. So my guesses about what is happening here:
sugoshi-haberi-tsuru "I have lived until now thus (deciding not to tell you)."

uchi-ide-haberi-nuru zo Perhaps the nuance is that she will tell all, so completive, and perhaps also that she has no choice in the matter--she has to speak whether she wants to or not--so -nu.

Here are my translation and notes.

At the beginning of the section it said that since the beginning of spring she would look at the moon and weep, then there is a conversation on the 15th of the 7th month.
八月の望ばかりの月に出で居て、赫映姫いといたく泣き給ふ。
Going out and sitting under the moon that was nearing the full moon of the eighth month, Kaguya-hime wept extremely bitterly.
[The full moon of the 8th month is in principle (not by the formal definition!) the full moon nearest the autumnal equinox, the "名月". OK, I know that for you the 8th month is the month of the the spring equinox, but for her it was the fall.]
Ide-iru is "go out" or "go out and sit". There is a noun ide-i derived from this that means "being out in a place near the garden."
The other problem with "when the moon appears" is that it is "tsuki ni"

人目も今はつゝみ給はず泣き給ふ。
これを見て、親どもも、「何事ぞ」と問ひ騷ぐ。
Now she wept even without concern about people's eyes (what people would think).
Seeing this, her parents asked in alarm, "What is it?"

赫映姫泣く/\いふ、「さきざきも申さむと思ひしかども、
Sobbing she said, "A long time ago I thought I would tell you. However,

必ず心惑ひし給はむものぞと思ひて
realizing that you would certainly be distraught
shi-tamau hon. of su(ru) with the verbal noun kokoro-madoi.
mono is probably a "formal" noun referring to a statement that is a matter of course (eg. kanashii toki wa naku mono "One cries when sad.").

Some manuscripts have kokoro-madowashi-tamau for kokoro-madoi shi-tamau.
Probably here madowasu is transitive with the subject the old couple, cf. modern Ano hito wa (jibun no) kokoro wo madowasu "He is troubled in heart."

今まで過し侍りつるなり。
I have passed the time until now (without saying anything).
nari is like modern no da, the sentence is explaining something.

さのみやはとて、打出で侍りぬるぞ。
But wondering whether things can go on just like this (and realizing they cannot), I must finally speak out.
sa-nomi ya wa tote ---ya wa is a question marker expecting "no." So "[thinking] just like this?"

Is the zo at the end a question marker in conjunction with the ya wa? I think not, because the quotation word tote is earlier, so the question is "sa nomi ya wa". Also, ya wa expects "no," but clearly she must speak. So I think the zo is the decisive zo, not a question marker.

There is a lot to think about in these sentences, and I have changed my mind several times, but it is interesting. Any comments?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is the url for the text
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/texts/AnoTktr/f-horizontal0-0.html

The other Taketori on the contents page does not open for some reason.

I'll answer your comments soon. Very interesting - so much in a few short sentences. I am reading the next couple at the moment and will post an attempt at translation in a little while. But with your help I think I am getting the hang of unpicking. Thanks again Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
をのか身は此国の人にもあらす月の宮古の人也それをなんむかしのちきりなりけるによりなむ此世界にはまうてきたりける今は帰るへきに成にけれは此月の十五日にかの国よりむかへに人々まうてこんすさらはまかりぬへけれはおほしなけかむか悲しき事を此春より思ひなけき侍るなりと云ていみ敷なくを翁こはなてうことの給ふそ

'My body is not of the people of this world. It is of the people of the capital of the moon. As a result of a vow I made in the past when I came to visit this world, now since the time has come when I should return, on the 15th day of this month people from that former country intend to come and meet me. Because it cannot be avoided and I must leave, all summer I have been grieving for the sadness you would probably feel,' she said, weeping bitterly, and so the old man (replied) 'Whatever are you talking about?'

I agree with all your interpretations, having gone through them all again. The last one

Quote:
Is the zo at the end a question marker in conjunction with the ya wa? I think not, because the quotation word tote is earlier, so the question is "sa nomi ya wa". Also, ya wa expects "no," but clearly she must speak. So I think the zo is the decisive zo, not a question marker.

Shirane has as a rhetorical question expecting the answer "no" which would make zo a question marker, but it seems to me either is plausible.

Quote:
The other problem with "when the moon appears" is that it is "tsuki ni"


I think I was being too literal and couldn't grasp she might be sitting in the moonlight, not the actual moon Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is my translation with notes.
をのか身は此国の人にもあらす
Ono ga mi wa kono kuni no hito ni mo arazu;
I am not even a person of this country;
I think ono-ga mi may mean "I" referring to "self," rather than "my body" as opposed to my mind or soul, etc. Cf. jishin 自身. Also waga mi or kono mi can be used as 1st person pronouns. That makes more sense contextually, and also grammatically.. "I am not a person…" rather than (literally) "My body is not a person."

月の宮古の人也
tsuki no miyako no hito nari.
I am a person of the capital of the moon.

それをなんむかしのちきりなりけるによりなむ此世界にはまうてきたりける
Sore wo nan, mukashi no chigiri nari-keru ni yori namu, kono sekai ni wa môde ki-tari-keru.
Despite that, because there was an ancient karma I came to this world.
Sore wo Perhaps the concessive use 逆接.. According to my grammar book, wo can mean "..de aru no ni." That would explain the use of sore in the sentence.
nan for namu before m
But I am not sure about the subject of narikeru in this text. Other versions have chigiri arikeru, which would make sense.
I think the yori ("because of a karma") modifies the verb in this sentence ("I came") rather than the next sentence ("they are coming").
ki-tari-keru attributive because of namu. Also perhaps -keri rather than -ki (or -shi) because she is still here.

今は帰るへきに成にけれは此月の十五日にかの国よりむかへに人々まうてこんす
Ima wa kaeru beki ni nari ni kereba, kongetsu no mochi ni, kano kuni yori mukae ni hitobito môde konzu.
Since it now has become the time when I must return, on the full moon of this month people are coming from that country to get me.
beki is attributive to an understood noun
mochi is from 望月 "full moon." It usually falls on the 14th or 15th, if one considers the night to stay the same date throughout the night, but it considered to be on the 15th, so texts have both 望 and 十五日. Man-getsu 満月 is a modern term, I think. (Do you remember the Mochizukis of "Japanese Inn"?)
konzu = ko-mu zu(ru). My classical-Japanese dictionary for mu-zu quotes this passage as an example and translates "yatte kuru darô." (Taketori seems to be a favorite source of examples for dictionaries and grammars.)


さらはまかりぬへけれはおほしなけかむか悲しき事を此春より思ひなけき侍るなり
Saraba, makari-nu be-kereba, oboshi-nageka-mu ga kanashiki koto wo, kono haru yori omoi-nageki haberu nari.
Since it is unavoidable that I must go, from this spring I have been lamenting how sad it is that you will lament.
Saraba "If that is so," but there is no "if" involved. Other texts have sarazu, lit., "not avoiding," which makes more sense. I would expect more sarezu, "cannot avoid," but apparently sarazu has that meaning. Kojien explains it as meaning yamu e-nai, quoting this passage (with sarazu). There is a poem in the Kokin waka shû: Yo no naka ni saranu wakare no naku (rentai of nashi) mogana. "Would that there were no unavoidable partings in this world!" (By the way, do you have the Kojien? I wouldn't be without it.)
makari-nu: conclusive of completive -nu before be-shi.
oboshi-nageka-mu………omoi-nageki-haberu "You will lament (hon.)…I am lamenting (hum.)" haberu as an -ari verb is attributive before nari.
nageka-mu [koto] ga kanashi A rare example of ga as subject marker in classical Japanese. "It is sad that you will lament." My grammar book says that from the end of the Heian Period ga could be used as a subject marker after an attributive verb (i.e. after an unexpressed noun), but not after an expressed noun till the 15th century. What does Shirane say about no and ga as subject markers?
kono haru yori That is, "from the beginning of the year." New Year's Day was in principle the new moon closest to the beginning of spring, which was half-way between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, so the first three months were considered spring.
nari Again explanatory--"This is why I have been crying."

と云ていみ敷なくを翁こはなてうことの給ふそ
to iite, imishiku naku wo, okina "Ko wa najô koto notamau zo!"
Saying this, she wept bitterly. At which the old man [said], "What is this you are saying!"
ko wa = kore wa
Nadeu koto = Nan to iu koto This is obviously an exclamation rather than a true question. He understands her well enough. In modern Japanese it is an expression of bewilderment, horror or dismay. It is sometimes used in scolding.
As a writer in English, can you use an exclamation point rather than a question mark here?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Ono ga mi wa kono kuni no hito ni mo arazu;
I am not even a person of this country;
I think ono-ga mi may mean "I" referring to "self," rather than "my body" as opposed to my mind or soul, etc. Cf. jishin 自身. Also waga mi or kono mi can be used as 1st person pronouns. That makes more sense contextually, and also grammatically.. "I am not a person…" rather than (literally) "My body is not a person."


This certainly reads better, but the ono ga mi wa seems to be stronger than this. We already know she has grown at a supernatural rate. I think it literally means her body is not human.
the ga here is attributive isn't it, = mod Jp no so the nari could refer to either the body or to I

By the way, how do you tell when hito is singular and when it is plural?

Quote:
Sore wo Perhaps the concessive use 逆接.. According to my grammar book, wo can mean "..de aru no ni." That would explain the use of sore in the sentence.


This "sore wo" is giving me headaches!

"Despite that" makes the most sense, Shirane has this o as an interjectory particle. Could you translate something like "that, you know, is because of an ancient karma"?

Quote:
Other versions have chigiri arikeru, which would make sense.


Shirane included. Also "sarazu" = cannot avoid.

I managed to skip over the reading of "mochi" for 十五日. Now I know. Same with haru which I misread as natsu. Yes, Mochizukis from Japanese Inn - never realised what their name meant before Smile

Shirane has a lot on ga and no - and does say that in ancient period it did not exist as a subject case particle. he does however give an example from Genji - suzumenoko Inuki ga nigashitsuru.

Historical Note (p.158) "GA started as an attributive case particle, became a subject case particle and then turned into a conjunctive particle. It was only beginning in the Muromachi period that the pattern 花が咲く with GA marking the subject became standard"

I have Kojien on my electronic dictionary and since your note have been looking everything up in that. It's quite exciting to find Taketori quoted so often. I don't have a classical dictionary as such so have to rely on Shirane.

Quote:
As a writer in English, can you use an exclamation point rather than a question mark here?


Some editors say one thing, some the other. I tend to use the question mark.

Onto the next section!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are my comments.
heron wrote:
the ga here is attributive isn't it, = mod Jp no so the nari could refer to either the body or to I
I am not sure what you mean. Ga is attributive to mi, and mi is the subject, so the "core" sentence is mi wa hito narazu.

Quote:
By the way, how do you tell when hito is singular and when it is plural?
By context! More concretely, it seems it is singular unless clearly plural. For instance 五人の人の中に is clearly plural. But there are a lot of cases of 人々 in Taketori, as "人々まうてこんす"in the next sentence, "五人の人々も"、"宮司侍ふ人々" "そのおはすらむ人々に申し給へ" Of course, in generalized contexts and places where it doesn't matter I suppose hito could be plural, but Taketori likes plural. Searching the 1929 text for どもgets lots of places where the context is clearly plural. 家の人ども--難き事ども--世の中に無き花の木ども立てり--男ども六人 Even 内外なる人の心ども--pluralizing hearts is not done in modern Japanese.

Quote:
This "sore wo" is giving me headaches!
"Despite that" makes the most sense, Shirane has this o as an interjectory particle. Could you translate something like "that, you know, is because of an ancient karma"?
If sore is a subject, where is the verb? mukashi no chigiri ari-keru ni yori namu, kono sekai ni wa môde ki-tari-keru. is a good sentence, and I cannot see where a sore would fit in. That is the main reason I decided on the "despite that" sense for wo.

Quote:
Shirane has a lot on ga and no - and does say that in ancient period it did not exist as a subject case particle. he does however give an example from Genji - suzumenoko Inuki ga nigashitsuru.
"EVERYONE" seems to give that quote from Genji. It may be the only place in Heian literature where ga is used as a subject marker after a noun. Perhaps it is because it is a child (Murasaki) talking--also note the verb is attributive. It probably is exclamatory use. What does Shirane say about this Taketori case--subject marker after an attributive verb? What does he say about no in such cases? I could not really follow what my dictionary said.

Quote:
I have Kojien on my electronic dictionary and since your note have been looking everything up in that. It's quite exciting to find Taketori quoted so often. I don't have a classical dictionary as such so have to rely on Shirane.
You might want to look carefully. My electronic classical dictionary is hidden in the "menu" menu. Of course, for real hard use like when I did my translation, I rely on my computer version of Kojien. I can search by kanji from beginning or from ending of words and even search definitions.

Quote:
Onto the next section!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
竹の中よりみつけきこえたりしかとなたねの大きさにおはせしをわかたけ立ならふまてやしなひ奉りたるわか子を何人かむかへきこえむまさにゆるさむやといひて我こそしなめとて啼〓(勹+言)ることいとたへかたけなりかくや姫の云月の宮古の人にてちゝはゝあり片時の間とてかの国よりまうてこしかともかく此国にはあまたの年を経ぬるになむありけるかの国のちゝはゝのこともおほえすこゝにはかく久敷あそひ聞えてならひ奉れりいみしからむ心ちもせすかなしくのみあるされとをのか心ならすまかりなんとするといひてもろともにいみしうなくつかはるゝ人々も年頃ならひてたち別なむ事をこゝろはへなとあてやかに美しかりける事をみならひてこひしからん事の堪かたくゆ水のまれすおなし心になけかしかりけり

"What person would come to pick you up, you whom I brought up as my own child, as well as anyone could, though I found you in the middle of the bamboo and you were the size of a rapeseed?"

take wo tachinarabu according to Kôjien is used in the sense 彼にーぶ者はいない

‘Why would I allow it?’ he said and then, ‘I would rather die,’ making a loud noise, crying, he seemed to find it very hard to bear.
What Kaguyahime said was, ‘I am a person of the capital of the moon. I have a father and mother. Though I came from that country for a short time, it is a fact that I have spent many years in this country. Without remembering anything of that country’s father and mother, I have enjoyed myself here in this way for a long time and have grown accustomed to it.

The next sentence imijikaramu kokochi sezu Shirane gives as ‘I don’t feel extremely (happy)
Kanashikunomiari I just feel sad.
But I don’t know where he gets the happy from.

I will put the rest of this section up tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Translation to the end of the section:

I have no extreme feelings. I just feel sad. Although it is not my will, I will no doubt end up leaving,’she said and they all wept bitterly together.

The next paragraph is complicated:

Even the attendants (tsukaharuru hitobito mo)
appeared to be sad with the same heart (onaji kokoro ni nagekashigarikeri)
at the imminent parting (tachiwakarenamu koto wo)
(of the person) so dear for so many years (toshigoro narahite) of an elegant and beautiful disposition and so on (kokorobaenado ateyaka ni utsukushikari tsuru koto) whom (the old people) were used to seeing and would miss in a manner hard to bear (wo minarahaite kohishikara mu koto no tahegataku)

and someone in all this is unable to drink hot water (yumizu nomarezu) but I have no idea who, or what the real meaning of this phrase is.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
竹の中よりみつけきこえたりしかとなたねの大きさにおはせしをわかたけ立ならふまてやしなひ奉りたるわか子を何人かむかへきこえむ
Take no naka yori mitsuke kikoetari-shikado, natane no ookisa ni owaseshi wo, waga take tachi-narabu made yashinai matsuri-taru waga ko wo nanibito ka mukae-kikoemu?

Some people are coming to get you, my child whom, though I found you in a bamboo, I brought up from the time you were the size of a rapeseed till you were as tall as I am?
I think the grammar of the sentence modifying waga ko is
Although I found (humble) you in the bamboo (so you are indeed not my birth child), I brought up you [unexpressed], who were the size of a rapeseed until you were as tall as I am.
heron wrote:
take wo tachinarabu according to Kôjien is used in the sense 彼にーぶ者はいない
「彼に―・ぶ者はいない」Kare ni tachinarabu mono wa inai in the Kojien is not an explanation of the Taketori quote, it is another example of the use of the word, a common expression-- "No one can compare with him."

まさにゆるさむやといひて我こそしなめとて啼〓(勹+言)ることいとたへかたけなり 泣きのゝしることいと堪へ難げなり。
Masa ni yurusamu ya?" to iite, "Ware koso shiname" to te naki-nonoshiru [I couldn't find that kanji, but other places had のゝしる] koto, ito taegatage nari
Would I actually allow it?" he said. "I would rather die!" His crying and cursing appeared very hard to bear.

かくや姫の云月の宮古の人にてちゝはゝあり片時の間とてかの国よりまうてこしかともかく此国にはあまたの年を経ぬるになむありけるかの国のちゝはゝのこともおほえす
Kaguya hime no iu: Tsuki no miyako no hito ni te chichi haha ari. Kata-toki no ma to te kano kuni yori môde ko-shikadomo, kaku kono kuni ni wa amata no toshi wo henuru ni namu arikeru. Kano kuni no chichi haha no koto mo oboezu.
Kaguya hime spoke thus: I have a father and mother among the people of the capital of the moon. I came from that country for a "short time," but actually many years have passed in this country. I don't even remember my father and mother of that country.

Kaguya hime no iu so, an example of no marking subject, though in an attributive clause.
Kata-toki no ma to te This seems to be what she had understood when she left the moon. Though, I think the contrast with amata no toshi is not because she was lied to, but that perception of time is very different for those of the moon and earth.
he-nuru ni namu arikeru is from he-nuru nari = hetta no da. Isn't that what you meant by your "it is a fact that"?

こゝにはかく久敷あそひ聞えてならひ奉れりいみしからむ心ちもせすかなしくのみある
Koko ni wa kaku hisashiku asobi-kikoete, narai-tatematsureri. Imijikaramu kokorochi mo sezu, kanashiku nomi aru.
In this way I have long been enjoying myself here and have become accustomed to here. I am not feeling overwhelmed (at the thought of returning home), I am only sad!
heron wrote:
The next sentence imijikaramu kokochi sezu Shirane gives as ‘I don’t feel extremely (happy)
Kanashikunomiari I just feel sad.
But I don’t know where he gets the happy from.

"(at the thought of returning home)" was Ôi's explanation. It is probably the standard one. As Imiji means extreme, "I am not very X, but only sad," X must mean "happy."
kanashiku nomi aru Probably aru is attributive because the sentence is exclamatory. At least I cannot find another reason.

されとをのか心ならすまかりなんとするといひてもろともにいみしうなく
Saredo, ono ga kokoro narazu, makari-nan to suru" to iite, moro-tomo ni imijû naku.
However, though it is not my will, it will certainly happen that I will leave," she said, and they all wept bitterly together.
Again, I am not sure why "suru" is attributive, but perhaps exclamatory.
Imijû is from imijiku.

I will do the last sentence later.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
つかはるゝ人々も年頃ならひてたち別なむ事をこゝろはへなとあてやかに美しかりける事をみならひてこひしからん事の堪かたくゆ水のまれすおなし心になけかしかりけり
Tsukawaruru hitobito mo toshi-goro naraite, tachiwakare-namu koto wo kokorobae nado ate貴yaka ni utsukusi-karikeru koto wo minaraite, koishikaran koto no taegataku, yu-mizu nomarezu, onaji kokoro ni nagekashi-garikeri.

The people who had been serving her also, (thinking how) having been used (to serving her) for many years they must part, found it unbearable that, having been used to seeing how noble and beautiful her character was, they would miss it, and they could not swallow even warm water, and lamented, united in their feelings.

How long!
I am not sure exactly of the grammar of tachiwakare-namu koto wo, whether is is the object of an understood "kangaeru" which is parallel to taegataku, or whether is is the object of taeru, parallel in form and meaning to soshikaran koto, though that does not seem good grammar
I think it is the attendants, not the old people, who were used to seeing her (minaraite)

I think not able to swallow oyu is a literal, though probably stereotyped expression. Compare in English "She was so upset she couldn't swallow her food." And warm water is probably the easiest thing there is to swallow.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
All this is very helpful, Bethetsu. I hope it’s not taking up too much of your time. I do appreciate your patience.

I’ll give some of Shirane’s glosses on the grammar:

Kaguyahime no iu: Shirane’s text reads Kaguyahime no iha ku

iha = MZ of iu and ku is a nominalising suffix

tsuki no miyako hito ni te

ni = RY of copular nari, te = conjunctive particle so: was and

so this refers to Kaguyahime as the subject rather than the parents, doesn’t it?

henuru ni nan arikeri

RY of verb hu = to spend time, RT of perfective aux verb nu modifying an implied koto, RY of copular verb nari, emphatic bound part. namu (sound change to nan) RY of sup verb ari, aux verb keri in RT because of namu.
= it is a fact that

kanashiku nomi aru: aru=RT with bound ending (without bound particle). I think your explanation is probably correct.

makarinamu to suru: RY of humble verb makaru (to leave) MZ of aux verb nu SS of aux. Verb mu, case part. to and RT of verb su “the combination of nu and mu expresses conjecture with confidence, and case part to and very su indicate an action which is about to take place: I will no doubt end up leaving."

Quote:
I am not sure exactly of the grammar of tachiwakare-namu koto wo, whether is is the object of an understood "kangaeru" which is parallel to taegataku, or whether is is the object of taeru, parallel in form and meaning to soshikaran koto, though that does not seem good grammar
I think it is the attendants, not the old people, who were used to seeing her (minaraite)


Shirane says this is a nominal phrase which is the object of the verbal phrase at the end of the sentence: nagekashi-garikeri.

His gloss is: RY of tachiwakaru. MZ of aux verb nu RT of aux v mu koto=action wo=case particle indicating object of implied verb.

He suggests the onaji tokoro ni refers to the old people rather than each other, which is why I thought the rest of the phrases in the sentence also applied to the old man and his wife, rather than the attendants.

Just read a piece in the book on Inaka Genji where Ryutei Tanehiko refers to the lack of medicine, apart from hot water, in the Heian period.

The next section in Shirane is called Heavenly ascent and begins
かかる程によひうちすぎて。。。
Do you want to go on to that?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
Kaguyahime no iu: Shirane’s text reads Kaguyahime no iha ku
iha = MZ of iu and ku is a nominalising suffix
iwaku 曰くis a very common expression at the beginning of a quote. It is especially used in kanbun 孔子曰く"Confucius says"

Tsuki no miyako no hito ni te chichi haha ari.
Quote:
tsuki no miyako hito ni te
ni = RY of copular nari, te = conjunctive particle so: was and
so this refers to Kaguyahime as the subject rather than the parents, doesn’t it?

I translated " I have a father and mother among the people of the capital of the moon", treating ni te as a postposition complementing ari. However, that is probably wrong as ari normally takes ni, not nite, and also Taketori normally distinguishes between singular hito and plural hitobito. So probably Shirane is right, and your translation
‘I am a person of the capital of the moon. I have a father and mother.
is correct.

Quote:
The next section in Shirane is called Heavenly ascent and begins
かかる程によひうちすぎて。。。
Do you want to go on to that?

We can hardly stop here, can we?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, we can't stop - I am really enjoying the challenge. But I will be away for about a week so I won't go on to the next section until the end of next week, probably.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
No, we can't stop.


You better not. I'm dying to see how the story ends Wink .
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is a bit of a cliff hanger Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
It is a bit of a cliff hanger Very Happy
Yes! Who knows what new verbal forms may be lying in wait!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've had a really busy couple of weeks - hope to get back to studying next week. Reading
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I couldn't get onto the U of V JTI to copy the text so I'll give the opening bit from Shirane:

かかる 程によひ うち過ぎて、子の時ばかりに、家のあたり昼の明かさにも過ぎて光りわたり、
望月の明さを十あはせたるばかりにて、ある人の毛の穴さへ見ゆるほどなり。大空より人、曇りに乗りて下り来て、土より五尺ばかり上がりたるほどに、立ち列ねたり。これを見て、内外なる人の心ども物におそはるるやうにて、あひ戦はん心もなかりけり。からうじて思ひ起こして、弓矢をとり立てんとすれども、手に力もなくなりて、萎えかかりたり。中に心さかしき者,念じて射んとすれども、外ざまへ行きければ、あれも戦はで、心地ただ痴れに痴れて、まもり合へり。

At this time, well into evening, about the hour of the Rat, a light brighter than midday spread around the house so much that it combined the brightness of ten full moons and even the pores in the skin of the people there could be clearly seen. From the deep vault of the sky, riding on the clouds, people came down and stood in a line about five feet above the ground. When the people inside and out saw this their hearts were as if seized by a superatural power and they lost all will to fight. Eventually (?) some renewed their resolve and went to take up their bows and arrows but the strength vanished from their hands and they weakened and leaned on their weapons. Inside, some brave people intended to shoot but when they went outside, even though they went wild, they could not fight; with feelings just as if they were dazed, dazzled, they stared at each other.


Some of Shirane’s notes:

Uchisugite – uchi is to give euphony but can also emphasise.

Aremotatakawade – the text seems to be corrupted: RY of SN verb aru, bound particle mo, MZ of YD verb tatakau and negative conjunctive particle de

Shirenishirete – repeating the RY of the verb with the case particle ni bentween emphasizes the content of the verb: they were totally dazzled. (I used dazed and dazzled, but that may be too much poetic licence)

This seemed like a more straightforward passage, though karaujite defeated me. Shirane glosses it as an adverb, but I could not find the meaning anywhere.

Two examples here of hito being used in the plural as far as I can see.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is my version.
In this way the evening went by, and about the hour of midnight the space around the house lit up with a brightness surpassing that of noonday, even as great as ten full moons combined, and one could see every detail of the faces of the people there.

From the heavens, people came descending on clouds, and they stood in a row bout five feet above the ground.

Seeing this, the people both inside and outside the house felt as if they had been attacked by something and had no desire for fighting.

Finally they managed to remember (what they were there for) and tried to take up bows and arrows, but the strength left their arms, and they grasped for support in their weakness.

In this situation, some valiant men, enduring (their weakness), tried to shoot, but (the arrows) went wild, so instead of fighting fiercely, their minds became utterly vacant, and they just gazed at each other.

My translation does not vary substantially from yours.

子の時 midnight, or, around the time of the equinox, from 11pm to 1 am. But in a fairy tale it is probably midnight. To use "hour of the rat" or "midnight" depends on whether you are translating it as an object of study, which of course is reasonable for a work like this, or as something to read for pleasure.

毛の穴 is literally hair-holes or pores, but to me that does strike a discordant note as we normally do not examine people's skin, so I tried to come up with a more general expression. Of course if it is meant for study one would want it literally. Keene wrote an essay about translation, I think it is in "Appreciations of Japanese Culture." But he said the important thing in literary translation is faithfulness to the overall mood rather than the details. "In my translation [of a play] one sentence goes, 'Her face was like an hibiscus flower, and her brows were willow leaves.' Unfortunately, the original had one additional phrase, 'Her face was like an hibiscus flower with a nose and mouth attached.'" I often thought of this essay when I was doing my novel translation--for example, one critical scene had "She moved forward on her beautiful knees." In my translation I left "beautiful" out.

からうじてis modern karôjite 辛うじて, with difficulty, barely, finally.

中に "Among them," but some manuscripts have in the previous sentence かかりたる i.e RT, which would mean "in [the situation] of having to cling out of weakness."

外ざま hokazama is "in an unrelated direction", so the subject is probably the arrows.
あれも. My first thought was that "are" is the pronoun, so "these also," but some manuscripts have 荒れも, so "did not fight roughly."

痴れる The dictionary gives meanings like baka no yô ni nau, bokeru (used especially of old people suffering from dementia), bonyari to naru, also 酔い痴れる

Dictionaries love Taketori!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Many apologies, Bethetsu, I've been away and came home sick, so haven't been able to give your response the attention it deserves. I hope to get back to Taketori by the weekend.

It's amazingly vivid, isn't it, for something written so long ago, and as you said before, easier to understand than anglo-saxon Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
たてる人共はさうそくのきよらなること物にもにすとふ車ひとつくしたりらかいさしたりその中にわうとおほしき人いへに宮つこまろまふてこといふにたけく思ひつる宮つこまろも物におそひたる心ちしてうつふしにふせりいはく汝おさなき人いさゝかなるくとくを翁つくりけるによりて汝かたすけにとて片時の程とてくたししをそこの年比そこらのこかねたまひてみをかへたるかことなりにけりかくや姫はつみをつくり給へりけれはかくいやしきをのかもとにしはしおはしつる也

The brightness and purity of the clothes of the people who appeared was like nothing on earth. They brought with them a flying cart and were holding elegant sunshades. From among them a man who looked like a king addressed the house, 'Miyatsukomaro, come here!' Even Miyatsukomaro, who was thought to be brave, was overcome by his presence, and prostrated himself, flat on his face.

The man said, 'Since you, old man, an immature person, did a few good deeds, thinking to help you, and thinking it would be for a short time, I sent (Kaguyahime) down, and for many years I gave you money, as a result of which you became like a changed person. Because Kaguyahime committed a transgression she came in this way to the dwelling of a vulgar man like you, for a while.

I take your point about translating for smoothness, but sometimes the unusual phrasing says something important about the culture and the literature. So leaving out beautiful sounds much better to English speakers, but beautiful knees makes you think about knees being considered beautiful, which is kind of interesting in itself. Same with the Hour of the Rat, and the pores - I suppose it does depend on if you are translating for study or for general readers, as you say.

Shirane only gave three grammar notes for this section, and the only complex sentence is the one beginning ogane tamahite. I have mostly followed his translation.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mine is not too different from yours.

たてる人共はさうそくのきよらなること物にもにす
The people standing there, the elegance of their raiment of was unlike anything (known).

とふ車ひとつくしたりらかいさしたり
There was a flying carriage with them. It had an open parasol in it.

その中にわうとおほしき人いへに宮つこまろまふてこといふに
The person in it, who appeared to be a king, speaking towards the house said, "Miyatsukomaro! Come here!"
Sono naka ni I think sono naka is more likely to mean "in the carriage," that "among the people," but it does seem ambiguous.

たけく思ひつる宮つこまろも物におそひたる心ちしてうつふしにふせり
At this, Myatsukomaro, who had felt so brave, feeling he had been attacked by something [by this manuscript, others, eitaru feeling he had lost control of himself] lay prostrate on his face.
Omoitsuru--past, not now!
Kojien 酔ひ --ある物事に心をうばわれて正気を失ったような状態

いはく汝おさなき人いさゝかなるくとくを翁つくりけるによりて汝かたすけにとて片時の程とてくたししをそこの年比そこらのこかねたまひてみをかへたるかことなりにけり
"You, youngling! Because of a few meritorious deeds that (you,) old man, performed, (considering it) as a help to you, (considering it to be) for a short time, I sent down (the princess), and thus over many years I gave you many (pieces of) gold, and it was like you were a different person.
As okina is the subject of tsukurikeru, Nanji osanaki hito is probably vocative.
功徳 kudoku is a Buddhist term. 功 is usually read (漢音) but ku is the earlier,呉音 which appears mostly in very common words (cf. 人間 (呉)vs 人類 (漢)) and Buddhist words. kudoku is a Buddist term for a good deed that brings about a good 果報, usually in the next life, but here probably in the present one.
ga goto(ku) gotoku is usually preceded by ga in classical Japanese, though not in modern Japanese.

かくや姫はつみをつくり給へりけれはかくいやしきをのかもとにしはしおはしつる也
It was because Kaguya hime committed a sin that she stayed thus for a short time with a miserable person like you.
Owashi-tsuru again completive--she is no longer to stay with you.

heron wrote:
I take your point about translating for smoothness, but sometimes the unusual phrasing says something important about the culture and the literature. So leaving out beautiful sounds much better to English speakers, but beautiful knees makes you think about knees being considered beautiful, which is kind of interesting in itself.

If it had been a part of a description of her I probably would have tried to work it in, but she moved forward on her knees (she was kneeling on the floor) in order to speak more earnestly, so I didn't want to taking the attention of the readers away from the conversation.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the reminder of tsuru, that made the two sentences easier to understand.

This is this week's segment from JTI

つみの限はてぬれはかくむかふるを翁はなきなけくあたはぬ事也はやいたし奉れと云翁こたへて申かくや姫を養奉る事廿余年に成ぬかた時との給ふにあやしくなり侍りぬ又こと所にかくや姫と申人そおはしますらんと云爰におはするかくや姫はおもき病をしたまへはえいておはすましと申せはその返事はなくて屋のうへにとふ車をよせていさかくや姫きたなき所にいかてか久しくおはせむと云たてこめたる所の戸即たゝあきにあきぬかうしともゝ人はなくしてあきぬ女いたきてゐたるかくや姫とに出ぬえとゝむましけれはたゝさしあふきてなきをり竹取心まとひてなきふせる所によりてかくや姫云こゝにも心にもあらてかくまかりのほらんをたに見をくり給へといへともなにしに悲しきにみ送りたてまつらむ

However, the text I am working from - annotated by Haruo Shirane – sometimes differs (and is much easier to read). I would type it in, but it takes ages, with the old kanji, so I'm going to give the phrases in romaji. If you think it's easier to follow I'll do it in kanji and kana next time.

The way I have been working on this, is to isolate the various phrases, check all the grammar against Shirane’s notes, look up vocabulary and write the English version. This time I thought I would give the phrases as well as the finished translation.

‘You are weeping and grieving, old man, because you took her into your house in this way, but since the punishment has come to an end, there is nothing you can do. Be quick and bring her out!’ he said. The old man replied, ‘It’s over twenty years that I’ve been looking after Kaguyahime. When you call that a short time, it makes me uneasy. Maybe there’s another Kaguyahime in some other place. The Kaguyahime who is here cannot come out, because she is seriously ill. When he said this, the other made no reply but brought the flying carriage close to the roof and cried, ‘Well, Kaguyahime, why should you linger in this unclean place?’ At that time, there was nothing to prevent the doors of the place where she was confined being opened, and there was no one to prevent the lattices being opened either. Despite the woman holding her, Kaguyahime came outside. When she could not stop her the woman simply looked up, in tears. Kaguyahime went to the Bamboo Cutter, who was lying on the ground, beside himself, weeping, and said, ‘Since I have to take my leave, in this fashion, not of my own accord, please at least see me off.’ But he replied, ‘Why? For what purpose should I see you off, when my sorrow is so great.?’

Tsumi no kagiri hatenureba: since the punishment (the limit of the trangession)
has come to an end

kaku mukafuru wo okina wa nakinageku atawanu koto nari: you, weeping and grieving old man, who welcomed her in this way, can do nothing about it.

I find the meaning of this clause quite hard to tease out:

the wo is a conjunctive particle so has the meaning “and so” so does it mean ‘because you welcomed her in this way now you are weeping and grieving’?

haya idashitate matsure: quickly, bring her out.

to iu: he said.

Okina kotahete mausu: the old man said in reply (answered and said) (humbly)

Kaguyahime wo yashinahitate matsuru koto ni juu yo nen ni narinu: I have brought Kaguyahime up for a little more than twenty years

Katatoki to no tamafuni ayashiku narihaberinu: when you say for a short time I become suspicious

Matakotodokoroni Kaguyahime to mausu hito zo owasuran: maybe in some other separate place there is (some other) person called Kaguyahime.

To iu: he said

kokoni owasuru Kaguyahime wa: the Kaguyahime who is here

omoki yamahi wo shitamaheba: because she is gravely ill

eide owashimasu maji: is not able to come out

to mauseba: when he said this

Sonokaerigotowa nakute: the other made no reply

Ya no uhe ni tobukuruma wo yosete: he brought the flying carriage close to the roof of the house

Iza, kaguyahime, katanaki tokoro ni ikade ka hisashiku owasen: well, Kaguyahime, why should you linger in this unclean place

To iu: he said

Tatekometaru tokoro no to: the door of the place where she was confined

Sunawichi: at that time

Tada akini akinu: Shirane translates this as ‘there was nothing to prevent the doors from being opened. Maybe: the doors were wide open

Kaushi mo hito wa nakushite akinu: likewise, the lattice, nobody being there, was also open

Not quite sure of the next sentence. Is the subject Kaguyahime or the woman?

Onna idakite itaru kaguyahime: despite the woman holding her, Kaguyahime

Sotoni idenu: came outside

Etodomumajikereba: when she could not stop her

Tada sashiafugite naki ori: she (the woman) simply looked up and wept.

Taketori kokoro madohite nakifuseru tokoro ni yorite Kaguyahime iu: Kaguyahime went to where the Bamboo Cutter was prostrate, confused and weeping, and said

Kokonimo kokoronimo arade kaku makaruni: since I too, in this fashion, take leave, not of my own accord

Noboran wo dani miokuri tamahe: at least, please see me off as I ascend.

Toihe domo: she said but (he said)

Nanishini kanashikini miokuretate matsuran: Why? For what purpose should I, in my sorrow, see you off?
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