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evalerio
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:31 pm    Post subject: Questions on 'Gunshi Kanbe' Reply with quote
In the Taiga Drama 'Gunshi Kanbe', the Kuroda are vassals of Kodera Masamoto. SA Wiki has the name as Odera Masamoto. Does anyone know why the difference in the name? Does anyone have the date of birth and/or death of Odera Masamoto?

The last episode I saw the campaign to subjugate Harima began with the taking of Fukuhara and Kozuki castles. The castle defenders are identified as Fukuhara Sukenari and Kozuki Kagesada. Are these actual historical figures? If they are, does anyone have a brief bio for them?

Thank you in advance.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My historical names dictionary has him as 1529-1584 and the name (小寺政職) as Kodera. "小" can be rendered as "O" or "Ko" (among other things), but in this case Kodera looks to be the accepted reading.

Out of time at the moment, I'll try to check later on the other two.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
My historical names dictionary has him as 1529-1584 and the name (小寺政職) as Kodera. "小" can be rendered as "O" or "Ko" (among other things), but in this case Kodera looks to be the accepted reading.

There is little question that Kodera is correct: according to Papinot, the Jesuits referred to Kanbe as Simeon Condera.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I googled it a while back, Odera seems to come up less often, but it's there. I couldn't tell you where it originally came from.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you. The Kodera/Odera now makes sense.

Regarding the tragic episode of the fall of Kozuki castle defended by a certain Kozuki Kagesada in the series, Samurai Wiki has Akamatsu Masanori as the doomed defender of Kozuki Castle.

So, the details of the Kozuki episode is fiction then?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, there was a Fukuhara Sukenari (福原助就 1548-1578) and he did look to be in charge of Takakurayama Castle (高倉山城) which fell to the Oda forces. This is probably what's being called Fukuhara Castle (福原城, also called Sayou Castle 佐用城), as it overlooked Takakurayama, but they could be different. You can read more about Fukuhara castle HERE.

As far as Kouzuki Castle, I'm not sure which 'doomed defender' or 'tragic episode of the fall of Kozuki castle' you're referring to. In the initial Oda attack on the castle, it appears many of the defenders (including children and women) were mutilated and killed during the 'siege' by Amako Katsuhisa (尼子勝久). Katsuhisa took the castle and then in turn was attacked in 1578 by a Mori relief force. His 'vassal' Yamanaka Shikanosuke 'volunteered' Amako for seppuku to save the garrison, which the no-doubt resentful Amako carried out. Not sure where the SA Wiki got Akamatsu Masanori from (the entry is dead-on for Amako Katsuhisa, and Amako even has an entry that credits him with the deed too)-as far as I know, Masanori died in 1498.

In any case, could find no mention of a Kouzuki Kagesada (no Kouzuki/Kozuki family at all). It's possible he held the castle against Amako Katsuhisa during the initial Oda assault.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, Tats,

I think I know what the English subtitiles may have meant.

Takakurayama Castle defended by Fukuhara Sukenari. To make it easier, they just refer to it as Fukuhara's Castle.

If Akamatsu Masanori died in 1498 then he couldn't be the commander of Kozuki Castle when it fell to the Amako in 1577. Since you couldn't find any Kozuki family at all, maybe the reverse was used. A fictional character of Kozuki Kagesada, the name this time taken from the castle.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fukuhara Castle also might just be another name for Takakurayama (at the very least, they were located within a mile of each other). Castles from that era are often known by several names. It is somewhat uncommon for a castle and defender to have the same name (despite the fact both castles and families often took their names from their locations), but not unheard of (like Chiba castle).

For Kozuki, it really depends on which assault the drama is portraying. If it’s the first one where the Oda/Hashiba forces took the castle, it could be a Kozuki since I didn’t see a commander listed in any of the sources I checked. If it’s the second where the Mori counterattacked and reclaimed the castle, he’s surely made up. Can’t imagine why they’d do that (or why the novel it’s based on would)-the Amako incident is one of the more notorious in Japanese history with the famed ‘ultimate loyal’ samurai Yamanaka virtually handing his lord over to the enemy to save his own hide.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looking ot the list of characters for the drama on J-wiki, Kozuki was the defender in the Oda assault. He may be made up though, from the name of the castle. He appears as Kambe's brother-in-law.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you all for the replies and discussion. Helps in enjoying the series more.

Naturally, seeing heraldry come to life in many of the episodes is a bonus for me. The hata-jirushi identified with Mouri Motonari being used by Terumoto caught my attention. My copy of the writing on the banner is very small and had to use a magnifying glass to create a bigger copy.



Did I get it right? Could anyone translate? Thank you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good reading!

頂禮(礼)正八幡大菩薩
南無九万八千軍神二千八百四天童子十
皎命摩利支尊天王
Invocations to
Hachiman八幡,
the 98000 軍神 Military gods and the 2800
4 Heavenly Dôji 10 天童子十(?),
the Hindu deity Marishi 摩利支 no Mikoto(!shinto term) heavenly king

A fine display of syncretism praying for military victory.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
WOW! Thank you Bethetsu.

I am unfamiliar with the number 2800.

Is the 4 Heavenly Doji 10 referring to:
Jikoku-ten
Zojo-ten
Komoku-ten
Tamon-ten

So, Motonari had a religious banner to 'cover all the bases' going into battle.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So the Mori had Taira no Kiyomori's alleged handwritten 'Dan-no-Ura 98,000 War Gods' banner and Minamoto no Yoritomo's 'Hachiman' banner all covered in one nice package. Nothing like having all your sides covered.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Is the 4 Heavenly Doji 10 referring to:
Jikoku-ten
Zojo-ten
Komoku-ten
Tamon-ten



Yes, all of them together as the Shitennou, the Buddhist guardians of the four directions (although #2 is usually Zocho-ten). Douji usually means child but is often used to signify attendants (or even 'kindred spirits) in Buddhism (the Shitenno are attendants of Taishakuten, the Guardian of the Center).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jikoku-ten, etc. would be also my first guess for Heavenly Dôji 10, though I don't know what the final 10 is.

As to 2800 (28 X 100), I would speculate. There were 28 "lunar lodges" or "normal stars [i.e. stars used as a norm for identifying celestial locations]" of early Chinese astronomy, which became used in divination. These were divided into four groups of seven identified very strongly with the four Chinese direction guardians, the tiger, dragon, etc. (These are depicted in some famous ancient Japanese tombs.)
Since the 4 "heavenly kings" guard the four directions as well, these were probably associated with the 28 normal stars too. Who cares if it is 28 or 2800? It is just a matter of adding 0's. (Don't quote me on that, please.) So it might be something like "the 4 Heavenly Kings who control the hundredfold 28 parts of the heavens."
The Japanese 二千八百四天童子十could also mean "the 2804 Heavenly Dôji 10", so "the 100 bodhisattva in each of the lodges plus the four heavenly kings"??

By the way, how historical is this banner?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Jikoku-ten, etc. would be also my first guess for Heavenly Dôji 10, though I don't know what the final 10 is.

As to 2800 (28 X 100), I would speculate. There were 28 "lunar lodges" or "normal stars [i.e. stars used as a norm for identifying celestial locations]" of early Chinese astronomy, which became used in divination. These were divided into four groups of seven identified very strongly with the four Chinese direction guardians, the tiger, dragon, etc. (These are depicted in some famous ancient Japanese tombs.)
Since the 4 "heavenly kings" guard the four directions as well, these were probably associated with the 28 normal stars too. Who cares if it is 28 or 2800? It is just a matter of adding 0's. (Don't quote me on that, please.) So it might be something like "the 4 Heavenly Kings who control the hundredfold 28 parts of the heavens."
The Japanese 二千八百四天童子十could also mean "the 2804 Heavenly Dôji 10", so "the 100 bodhisattva in each of the lodges plus the four heavenly kings"??

By the way, how historical is this banner?


I like this explantion, especially when you consider adding extra 0's (whether a hundred, a thousand, or ten thousand) was often a literary device to just signify "a WHOLE LOT" in gunkimono-something picked up from Chinese literature. This causes all the wildly inflated troop figures you seem to see in the Taiheiki or Heike Monogatari-when the text says that a daimyo appeared on the field with 10,000 horseman, it shouldn't be taken literally, but read like "Tsunetane appeared on the field with an overwhelming force". Given the hyperbole of the 98,000 gods to begin with and the 28 lunar lodges, this makes sense. The 10 could just signify 10 petitions to these deities (although given the hype here seems low Wink ).

As to the banners, NHK is notorious for cooking up phony banners (although to be fair, many are just lifted from the novelizations they come from) to use as a type of 'visual shorthand' to quickly and easily identify different factions and samurai on the small screen. They're particularly creative when it comes to Genpei/Kamakura banners that historically were usually plain banners or perhaps ones with a simple mon or line. However, since prayer banners were all the rage in the Sengoku and this one looks too elaborate to have just been made up, it might have a basis in history (if, again, it wasn't just based on a desription in the novel).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I posted an illustration of the banner in 2008 here:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1638&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

It appears in two Japanese heraldry books in my collection, included in biographies of Mouri Motonari.

I am currently updating the Mouri Motonari set.

Taiga dramas often 'tweak' or embellish historical heraldry when cross checked with Japanese heraldry books. BUT every now and then I discover that some of the designs they come up with that I wasn't aware of at the time, may be accurate.

The current series is a bit different. Many of the heraldry in Harima are 'dull' and rudimentary. Several clans have the same sets of banners, with nothing to tell them apart. I've discovered that this is possibly the reality in areas like Shinano and much of Kyushu.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The English subtitled version of 'Gunshi Kanbe' is two weeks behind from the unsubtitled version. I got the impression that Kanbe and the Amako developed a friendship that tormented Kanbe when he was not able to save the Amako from destruction. Is this accurate or just for drama?

Below is an illustration based on RK heraldry books. The banner on the left is Amako, and the banner to the right is Kanbe's. They both have the Amako mon. Does anyone know the story for the two banners?

Thank you for any help on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
According to the text, the right one is a hypothetical reconstruction 推復元 based on the Kuroda Kafû of the two-divinity banner --Hachiman Daibosatsu (大菩薩) and the Great God (大明神) of [the shrine at?] Sasaki.
The left is an imagined reconstruction 想像復元.
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