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Who were Nobunaga's rear guard at the Kanegasaki retreat?

 
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hashiba_hideyoshi
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Who were Nobunaga's rear guard at the Kanegasaki retreat? Reply with quote
I'm receiving confusing information here. The Shinchoukoki only mentioned Hideyoshi being stationed as rear-guard. Then I came across some "biography manga for kids", and the Nobunaga one had Ieyasu assisting Hideyoshi as the rear guard. The Akechi one had Akechi show up with reinforcement to support both Ieyasu and Hideyoshi.

The Sengoku manga by Miyashita Hideki had Hideyoshi being stationed as rear guard and Akechi showing up with reinforcements. Nothing about Ieyasu. The Nobunaga no Chef manga had Hideyoshi and Akechi working together, while Ieyasu also escapes the scene.

The last two are pseudo-fictional so I take them with a grain of salt, but the biographies aren't supposed to tell lies... I mean, okay, maybe some info are being omitted to save space, but this is only confusing me -_-

So... Who exactly were acting as rear guards there? Google turned up nothing. I don't remember if Japonius Tyrannus discussed this much. Help?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ikeda Katsumasa was part for the rear guard besides Hideyoshi and Mitsuhide at Kanegasaki.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, so Ieyasu is not part of it?

Do you know a good resource to look at? This is kind of confusing me -_-
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's confusing to everyone Wink . One thing to keep in mind is that contemporary, detailed records of Sengoku period battles are few and far between. Most of what has filtered into English language scholarship (and even Japanese scholarship for that matter) has been based on histories written in the Edo period. And of course, what family was running the show then? The Tokugawa. Giving the Tokugawa a prominent role in any battle they were involved in was a good move by authors of the times who didn’t want to be blacklisted or thrown in jail (and for the most part, writing about Sengoku era history and personalities was prohibited anyway)-and many of the surviving histories were written by Tokugawa family members and vassals. So you don’t have accounts of how idiotic Ieyasu was for charging the Takeda at Mikatagahara, just how heroic he was in snatching victory from defeat and how it was all the fault of the Oda troops for running off in the first place. You get detailed accounts of how Ieyasu got screwed by Nobunaga at Anegawa by being pitted against the larger Asakura army, knocked them around, and then pulled Nobunaga’s chestnuts out of the fire by going after the Asai. And, of course, Ieyasu becomes part of the rearguard at Kanegasaki to show how loyal and brave he was-and in later novels, it also becomes an excellent fictional device for him to form bonds with Hideyoshi and Mitsuhide, which makes his dealings with them later all the more dramatic. Then during the Meiji period in the 1890’s the Japanese Army General Staff cobbled together a highly detailed multi-volume official military history in an effort to give Japan the same type of recorded tradition that Western nations had, drawing heavily on these Edo period accounts and often just inventing things out of thin air (like Tedorigawa, a very minor rear-guard action that suddenly was portrayed as a huge pitched battle with intricate tactics). These same histories are still drawn on by Japanese pop culture sources today (like all those really nice detailed maps and charts in Rekishi Gunzou books).
Basically, what we really know for sure about Sengoku era battles is only slightly better than what we know about Genpei War battles, the Mongol Invasions, or Go-Daigo’s power grab (all of which rely almost exclusively on gunkimono). There is some decent documentation for army composition and size, but for battles-not so much.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From all my sources that I have, it looks like Hideyoshi, Mitsuhide, and Ikeda Katsumasa (from Settsu with 3,000 men) led the rear guard. Tatsunoshi, it always confusing. LOL
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
It's confusing to everyone Wink . One thing to keep in mind is that contemporary, detailed records of Sengoku period battles are few and far between. Most of what has filtered into English language scholarship (and even Japanese scholarship for that matter) has been based on histories written in the Edo period. And of course, what family was running the show then? The Tokugawa. Giving the Tokugawa a prominent role in any battle they were involved in was a good move by authors of the times who didn’t want to be blacklisted or thrown in jail (and for the most part, writing about Sengoku era history and personalities was prohibited anyway)-and many of the surviving histories were written by Tokugawa family members and vassals. So you don’t have accounts of how idiotic Ieyasu was for charging the Takeda at Mikatagahara, just how heroic he was in snatching victory from defeat and how it was all the fault of the Oda troops for running off in the first place. You get detailed accounts of how Ieyasu got screwed by Nobunaga at Anegawa by being pitted against the larger Asakura army, knocked them around, and then pulled Nobunaga’s chestnuts out of the fire by going after the Asai. And, of course, Ieyasu becomes part of the rearguard at Kanegasaki to show how loyal and brave he was-and in later novels, it also becomes an excellent fictional device for him to form bonds with Hideyoshi and Mitsuhide, which makes his dealings with them later all the more dramatic. Then during the Meiji period in the 1890’s the Japanese Army General Staff cobbled together a highly detailed multi-volume official military history in an effort to give Japan the same type of recorded tradition that Western nations had, drawing heavily on these Edo period accounts and often just inventing things out of thin air (like Tedorigawa, a very minor rear-guard action that suddenly was portrayed as a huge pitched battle with intricate tactics). These same histories are still drawn on by Japanese pop culture sources today (like all those really nice detailed maps and charts in Rekishi Gunzou books).
Basically, what we really know for sure about Sengoku era battles is only slightly better than what we know about Genpei War battles, the Mongol Invasions, or Go-Daigo’s power grab (all of which rely almost exclusively on gunkimono). There is some decent documentation for army composition and size, but for battles-not so much.


Aha, I'm aware of that. On top of that, I'm still something of a noob in researching Japanese history, so I wouldn't know how extensive the existing materials are >.<

I wouldn't even begin to know what books to read or look for if I want to check up so and so information, and it's especially bad because I'm still a very beginner in Japanese and I can't read all the amazing books Les keeps on mentioning in the forums Sad
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