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Saru
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Samurai Landed Titles Reply with quote
So I am working on modifying a game, converting it from a European medieval period to Sengoku era Japan. In the game, titles are structured like this, highest to lowest:

Emperor
King
Duke
Count
Baron
Mayor
Priest

So far I have Shogun replacing Emperor, Kanrei replacing King, Daimyo replacing Duke... But what about the rest? I figured Kokujin could be Count or Baron... Any ideas?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No matter what you do you're not going to get a good match since the power structure changed over the course of the sengoku from the Shogunate to daimyo. If you want to stick wih Shogunate titles, you could go Shogun-Kanrei-Shugo-Shugodai-Gokenin and then maybe something like jizamurai and priest/monk.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If Kitsuno can post a link to the old discussion board we had for the online strategy game we played around with years ago, I had long, long posts on the development and structure of Japanese court ranks. Some of it may have migrated over here, so do a search for "ranks" and it may turn it up. That'll be more info than you'd ever need.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unfortunately, Kryo pulled the plug on the Ka(t)chi Made forum years ago. It does seem like you posted the rank/title info here at some point, but I have no clue where.
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Saru
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was able to find the following using search:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=2656&highlight=ranks

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1841&highlight=ranks

Some interesting stuff. I'm hesitant to use "Daimyo" instead of "Shugo" because "Daimyo" is slightly more accurate, as, for example, the Oda were not the true Shugo of Owari, but instead effectively usurped the Shiba, as part of the whole "low overtaking the high." Then again, the nature of the game's structure is also requiring that I use the "Kanrei" rank extensively when there was never really more than the Kanto and Kyoto ones.

I may use "Bugyô" instead of "Baron," even though that's more Tokugawa era, too...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
I was able to find the following using search:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=2656&highlight=ranks

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1841&highlight=ranks

Some interesting stuff. I'm hesitant to use "Daimyo" instead of "Shugo" because "Daimyo" is slightly more accurate, as, for example, the Oda were not the true Shugo of Owari, but instead effectively usurped the Shiba, as part of the whole "low overtaking the high." Then again, the nature of the game's structure is also requiring that I use the "Kanrei" rank extensively when there was never really more than the Kanto and Kyoto ones.

I may use "Bugyô" instead of "Baron," even though that's more Tokugawa era, too...


It really depends on the time period you're making the mod for. In the early Sengoku (circa the Onin War) the Shogunate offices and 'ranks' are more appropriate. As you move down the timeline, the daimyo structure would become more appropriate. And unlike in the Edo period, each daimyo would have his own power structure-each one would organize and give out jobs slightly differently. Realistically, you're not going to be able to reflect these subtleties/changes in a game (one of the many tradeoffs games have to make to be playable)-the titles are only a kind of visual shorthand to let players know the pecking order, especially since you're shoehorning them into a game based on Europe (CK2?). The one thing I wouldn't do is 'mix'-don't mix the Shogunal titles/ranks/jobs with 'daimyo' based ones, like using both Kanrei and Daimyo (although Uesugi Kenshin was both daimyo and Kanto Kanrei, but the Kanrei title meant little by then). You could still have Shogun at the top of the chain either way.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Unfortunately, Kryo pulled the plug on the Ka(t)chi Made forum years ago. It does seem like you posted the rank/title info here at some point, but I have no clue where.


Well, shit.

Found where we discussed it, here:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=49&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kami&start=0
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
It really depends on the time period you're making the mod for. In the early Sengoku (circa the Onin War) the Shogunate offices and 'ranks' are more appropriate. As you move down the timeline, the daimyo structure would become more appropriate. And unlike in the Edo period, each daimyo would have his own power structure-each one would organize and give out jobs slightly differently. Realistically, you're not going to be able to reflect these subtleties/changes in a game (one of the many tradeoffs games have to make to be playable)-the titles are only a kind of visual shorthand to let players know the pecking order, especially since you're shoehorning them into a game based on Europe (CK2?). The one thing I wouldn't do is 'mix'-don't mix the Shogunal titles/ranks/jobs with 'daimyo' based ones, like using both Kanrei and Daimyo (although Uesugi Kenshin was both daimyo and Kanto Kanrei, but the Kanrei title meant little by then). You could still have Shogun at the top of the chain either way.


I mostly agree with this. It really depends on what you're looking for, in terms of time period, etc.

For a Nobunaga/Hideyoshi based game, here's what I'd suggest:

Leave out "Emperor", as even though I wouldn't say the Imperial line had NO political power, it's not really useful in a game, as it's not a title you can claim. The only way it works is to run a game like we did for Katchi Made, where the Emperor is an independent player with no military power, but assigned political/diplomatic powers as a wild card.

If this is a progressive, climb the ranks type game where the goal is to get to the top rank, then "Emperor" doesn't work, as you couldn't conquer your way to being the Tenno Heika. Here's what I'd go with:

Emperor ---> Shogun
King ---> Kanrei, where in essence it's a daimyo that controls multiple provinces in a region.
Duke ---> Daimyo
Count ---> no Kami, or "Governor of X"; this was an empty honorary title by this time, but would be of appropriate prestige below Daimyo, but above "random kokujin"
Baron --> no Suke, or "Lieutenant/Deputy Governor of X" Same reasoning as above.
Mayor ---> Kokujin, ie a local samurai of note with local pull, but not beyond the village/communal area.
Priest ---> "Priest" seems to not fit, as that's a religious title, not a political one. You don't progress from being a "priest" to "mayor", etc. so not knowing the mechanics of the game, I wouldn't use it. Maybe "jizamurai", as even though it's pretty much the same as "kokujin", an argument could be made for striation.

If you're looking to early Sengoku, as Tatsu said, you might be better off using more of a system based on Shogunate offices. I REALLY don't like the Kanrei title in there above, but not sure how else you'd designate a "super daimyo", per se. I agree with Tatsu that mixing them is...less than ideal, so if you could come up with something between daimyo and shogun that indicated someone held multiple provinces, etc. then it could replace Kanrei. I'm just not sure what it would be.

Another alternative would be to use court ranks, but that'd be a bit confusing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am indeed modifying Crusader Kings II. I have a map that's just Japan, so it totally removed the default map (which stretches from Western Europe to India).

I am actually "converting" the Paradox Sengoku game over to CK II since they run on the same engine, but CK II has a ton more features and Sengoku was pretty much a beta test cash-in.

As such, there will be Onin War and 1551 scenarios, just like Sengoku has. I may also add some other scenarios starting in 1560, 1582 and 1600.

I like the idea of using Kami and Suke for Count and Baron respectively. But I should elaborate on the distinctions a little. The "lowest" playable characters are the counts/kami, who govern counties. In each county are settlements of three types: castles, cities and temples, each which have unplayable leaders -- barons, mayors and priests. So it may be more appropriate for the baron to be the Kokujin, the mayor to be a "village headman," and the "priest" the term for the head of a Buddhist temple.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like that would work well enough for your purposes.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I like Domer's setup, but I'd alter it a bit now that I know you're using CK2:

Shogun
Daimyo
- No Kami
- No Suke
Kokujin
Shouya (village headman)
Sou (monk, local priest)

Have to disagree about Sengoku being a beta (although I get what you're saying). While it used the CK2 engine it was developed along a different line-unremitting warfare versus the 'dynasty building/EU' approach of CK2 that focuses on the other aspects of empire building. There was a LOT of detailed research done for the game, but unfortunately I think the development team (as opposed to the research team) didn't know a lot about Japanese warfare/culture and wasn't keen to learn, and the relatively poor sales killed off the add-ons and DLC that really seem to flesh out Paradox games. Not surprising for a European company that specializes in games about Europe with a mainly European fanbase. The J-language version of Sengoku does have a decent following in Japan, though.
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Saru
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks a lot! Anthony Bryant's Sengoku RPG sourcebook also has "bōryō" as "mayor" or the "chief of a district or ward in a town."

This is actually a really good resource for some titles, as I have some good equivalents for the CK II council positions:

Chancellor -- Jōdai garō
Steward -- Okura-kyō
Marshal -- Hyōbu-sho
Court Chaplain -- Oinori-bugyō

Maybe "Shinobi-bugyō" for Spymaster...

Yeah, I totally get why CK II is more of a sandbox game and that Sengoku is meant more as an "actively conquer" game, but putting aside how that was (or wasn't) executed in the final product, I actually wanted Sengoku to be more of a sandbox game where you could just sit back and play as a minor lord the way you can in the CK II games. So putting the CK II mechanics with the Sengoku setting is really the best of both worlds for me.

Right now I'm set in terms of the map, scenarios, and clans. Need to flush out the family trees with fictional and historical characters, mod events to give them Sengoku "flavor," and tweak some other things and I should be able to release something. I don't know how many people here play Crusader Kings II, but I know how much love Sengoku got over here (and like was said, how much attention was paid to historical accuracy) and I'd love for continuing input from the posters here.

Like, was poaching a thing in medieval Japan the way it was in medieval Europe? I have to assume it was, but I've never actually read anything in a history book stating so.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
Like, was poaching a thing in medieval Japan the way it was in medieval Europe? I have to assume it was, but I've never actually read anything in a history book stating so.


Yes, for woodlands as well as 'hunting grounds', especially as you moved further into the Sengoku and into the Edo period. Hunting or cutting trees on daimyo 'protected lands' had heavy penalties but of course people would do it anyway.

And yeah, Tony's 'Sengoku' resource book is an excellent starting point for anyone putting together a samurai themed game.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I love both Sengoku and CK2, so am pretty excited to see someone trying to marry the two. I look forward to seeing where this goes.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool. I'll post something here once I have something that's ready to share. Working on filling out family trees with historical and fictional characters right now. I have a character generator that makes it easier than doing it by scratch, but CK2 struggles with adoptions/changing dynasties.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So some good news and some bad news...

The good news is that after many hours of work I have some real progress to show in terms of titles, characters, dynasties, and names for provinces and villages...

Here are some screenshots:

Historically accurate family trees


Correcting coat of arms/dynasty names/making daimyo independent


Adding character traits/family members


The bad news is that Paradox just released a new patch for CK II that is not compatible with the mod I've been using. I've actually been using a mod that someone else abandoned around six months ago, and unfortunately I lack the knowledge to make the mod compatible with this new 2.2 patch that was released to coincide with the new Charlemagne expansion.

The silver lining is that it's still possible to play the 2.1 version of the game using Steam, by right-clicking on CK II, selecting "Properties" and going to the "betas" tab. Of course this requires people to downgrade their version of the game, which actually isn't that bad considering how buggy the new patch is.

Basically, until I figure out how to update the mod to be compatible with the 2.2 patch or find someone willing to help me do so, the mod may have to be stuck for those willing to use the 2.1 version...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd try asking the Paradox forums for help.

Personally I don't mind downgrading, I don't even own the new expansion nor plan on buying it any time soon.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did Kamakura and Muromachi shogunates create formal ranks for their followers, separate from any ranks in the ritsuryo system that they got the imperial court to issue to these followers?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do miss Katchi Made.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:
I do miss Katchi Made.


It was, in fact, the perfect game.
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