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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Philippe wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
餓鬼 (っは俺のAccentだけかな)

いや。こっち(徳島)もよく「っ」を入れて言う、強調的に。多分西日本全体そう言うと思う。汚鳥君は確かに「餓鬼」より、「がっき」だな。もうちょっと面白ければ良いんだけど・・・


え、方言でよく要らない「っ」を入れてしまうんですね。名古屋だけじゃないんですけど、俺は名古屋で勉強したんだから、そこで習った。

「皆」は同じ。俺は、どうしても「みな」じゃなくて、「みんな」を書いて、言うんだ。両方パソコンにタイプすると「皆」が出るんですが、ある時日本人の方が、俺の作文を見直してくれると、「これが間違えだよ」と言った。「がっき」と同じ様につかちゃいます。
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
え、方言でよく要らない「っ」を入れてしまうんですね。名古屋だけじゃないんですけど、俺は名古屋で勉強したんだから、そこで習った。

方言って面白いな。使い分けるように勉強したけど、日常生活では、方言(阿波弁)の方がよく出てしまう。皆は、「みんな」を言わんと、「みな」と言ったらちょっと違和感がある。

さて、本題に戻ると、そう言う方言の違いを、samurai fiction の中で、どうやって上手く伝えられるんだろう?
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Philippe wrote:
 方言って面白いな。使い分けるように勉強したけど、日常生活では、方言(阿波弁)の方がよく出てしまう。皆は、「みんな」を言わんと、「みな」と言ったらちょっと違和感がある。


四国に言えば、一回行った事がある。松山と高松に行って、びっくりしたことあった。電車駅の予定表のannouncementでも、七時 は「しちじ」じゃなくて「ななじ」だった。現場の人と話すともう同じだった。とても面白かった。

Quote:
さて、本題に戻ると、そう言う方言の違いを、samurai fiction の中で、どうやって上手く伝えられるんだろう?


そうですね。本じゃないんですが、大河ドラマはよく方言とか使っているので、同じ様に使うことあるんじゃない?例えば、主人公は四国の人なら、話す時、阿波弁で話しているように書けばいいのかな?阿波弁しらないけど、名古屋だったら、こういう形かな:

「このえびふりゃあはどえりゃあうめえじゃのう!おみやもたべやあ!食べ過ぎて、太るのはおそぎゃあでいかんわ!わからんかい?」

難しいんだね。でも、音を書けば通じる。。。かな?
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Last edited by ltdomer98 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
四国に言えば、一回行った事がある。松島と高松に行って、びっくりしたことあった。


「松島」ちゃう!「松山」やんか!松島は宮城県やろう?
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
四国に言えば、一回行った事がある。松島と高松に行って、びっくりしたことあった。


「松島」ちゃう!「松山」やんか!松島は宮城県やろう?


Embarassed そうだぎゃ。書き間違った。そりゃいかんで、すまん!ミスをキャッチしてくれて、ありがと。
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
テレビでよく見るダニエル・カールさんは完璧な東北弁喋るね。
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
テレビでよく見るダニエル・カールさんは完璧な東北弁喋るね。


I hate that guy. I hate all 外人タレント on principle. I would pay to see that guy Dave Specter get his butt kicked, though.

Although I do like the Karakuri's Funniest English guy. Even if he is a bit of a sellout.
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Although I do like the Karakuri's Funniest English guy. Even if he is a bit of a sellout.


Thane Camus, who is tenuously related to the existentialist writer Camus. He got his girlfriend knocked up, had a dekichatta kekkon, and is now mostly seen hosting programs about child-raising.

I think most of the foreign tarento are fairly unappealing, but the absolute worst is that green-haired spaz on NHK's 英語しゃべらナイト. Mad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I would pay to see that guy Dave Specter get his butt kicked, though.



Hey, don't be hating on Dave. He's a cool guy. We used to have lunch from time to time when I was with the Mainichi and he was writing for me.


Tony
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:

Hey, don't be hating on Dave. He's a cool guy. We used to have lunch from time to time when I was with the Mainichi and he was writing for me.


Tony


I'll take your endorsement under advisement. His Terebi persona bugs me.
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Philippe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[方言の違いを、samurai fiction の中で、上手く伝えるには]

ltdomer98 wrote:
そうですね。本じゃないんですが、大河ドラマはよく方言とか使っているので、同じ様に使うことあるんじゃない?例えば、主人公は四国の人なら、話す時、阿波弁で話しているように書けばいいのかな?阿波弁しらないけど、名古屋だったら、こういう形かな:

「このえびふりゃあはどえりゃあうめえじゃのう!おみやもたべやあ!食べ過ぎて、太るのはおそぎゃあでいかんわ!わからんかい?」

難しいんだね。でも、音を書けば通じる。。。かな?

日本語で書けば、方言の発音通りで書くと確かに通じる。漫画でよくあること。

But I should have been more specific: I was actually thinking in terms of rendering the sense of dialectal fun in samurai fiction written in English. I'm not especially likely to be trying my hand at writing short stories in Japanese any time in the near future. Smile

(For those who couldn't follow the Japanese part of the discussion: we got into a sidetrack about the interesting aspects of Japanese dialects, and to bring things back on topic, I asked how those might be represented in fiction.)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Philippe wrote:

and to bring things back on topic, I asked how those might be represented in fiction.)


It was tried in the English version of "Botchan", but didn't work very well. The original Japanese is far, far more obvious. You can't really write a Japanese dialect in English, there is no way to differentiate or tag dialogue as a Japanese dialect, unless you use words to describe the way they are talking (slurred, lilted, gutteral, nasal, etc) and use that to give the idea that they are talking with some sort of accent, but you can't really create a hougen vocabulary in english - unless you just throw in various Japanese words among the english Just Kidding

Or you could always resort to the old standby:

"Kojiro always found Goemon's kansai accent annoying", and leave it at that.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Philippe wrote:

But I should have been more specific: I was actually thinking in terms of rendering the sense of dialectal fun in samurai fiction written in English. I'm not especially likely to be trying my hand at writing short stories in Japanese any time in the near future. Smile


Well, see, you were writing in Japanese, so I *assumed* you meant in Japanese... Just Kidding

Yeah, it's virtually impossible, I'd think. It's not like you can substitute a Southern accent for a Kansai accent or something.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

Yeah, it's virtually impossible, I'd think. It's not like you can substitute a Southern accent for a Kansai accent or something.


That's how a greek tragedy I read did it - they even put (Southern accent) before the dialogue. I think it was Athens vs. some other greek city.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Yeah, it's virtually impossible, I'd think. It's not like you can substitute a Southern accent for a Kansai accent or something.
Oh please DON'T!!!! I've seen Hollywood movies, where people are supposedly speaking in a foreign language -- but actually, they are speaking in English (for the English-speaking audience). They use various English/American accents or dialects to represent various dialects in a foreign language. I think it sounds really stupid. Confused

When writing a story about Japanese in English, then if a certain dialect is important to your story; as someone earlier suggested: use standard English and then put in some phrase or two about his particular dialect.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
It's not like you can substitute a Southern accent for a Kansai accent or something.


They do this a LOT in translated manga or dubbed anime, though, and it's weird.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It just doesn't work. For someone unfamiliar with Japanese regional accents, they won't get the intended impact; for someone who is familiar, it will just sound dumb.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
It just doesn't work. For someone unfamiliar with Japanese regional accents, they won't get the intended impact; for someone who is familiar, it will just sound dumb.


If I was forced to pick, I'd say California valley girl for Tokyo, Brooklyn, NY for Osaka, Georgia for the Tohoku, Scottish for Shikoku, and irish for kyushu. That's what it feels like to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

On the dubbed version of Rurouni Kenshin the owner of the Akebeko restaurant speaks with a Southern (not quite as thick as Georgian, but still very Southern) accent when the character is meant to be from Oosaka.


平和,

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:


On the dubbed version of Rurouni Kenshin the owner of the Akebeko restaurant speaks with a Southern (not quite as thick as Georgian, but still very Southern) accent when the character is meant to be from Oosaka.


Yeah, I've heard that method, but considering the circumstances I think it is a severe mismatch - Osaka dialect is thought of when you think of the meanest sounding Yakuza, and everyone seems to be intimidated by angry Osaka people, and it is a city dialect, not the country (you won't sound like a hick) and even Steven Segal speaks with an Osaka accent, so I'm sticking with Brooklyn.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Sounds good to me. I have never heard anyone actually break down the dialects/accents like that before.


平和,

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
These are of course purely subjective, but my other justification are that southern kyushu has wild tonal differences, it's lilting and the tone is all over the map, unlike monotone Tokyo dialect. Everyone says Shikoku dialects sound like someone talking from a Jidaigeki, like "olde" Japanese, and no one can understand the hicks from the Tohoku, they have to subtitle it when people talk, so I went with the deep south on that one.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

That is interesting. Do the people from Tohoku speak with a slur or is it just a linguistics breakdown?


平和,

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
kitsuno,

That is interesting. Do the people from Tohoku speak with a slur or is it just a linguistics breakdown?


平和,

マット


I don't know, I've barely heard it, but there are a lot of extra Z's in there. Ask 'domer, he was up that way last week I think.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
If I was forced to pick, I'd say California valley girl for Tokyo, Brooklyn, NY for Osaka, Georgia for the Tohoku, Scottish for Shikoku, and irish for kyushu. That's what it feels like to me.


Tokyo = that DC non-accent that politicians and TV news people speak.

Osaka = Brooklyn/Bronx. You nailed it.

Nagoya = Mississippi. Trust me on this, as for several years this is the reaction I got everytime I spoke Japanese outside of Nagoya. I felt like a regular Redneck.

Tohoku = Indian/Pakistani/Singaporean English. NO ONE really quite understands it. Intonations, timing, accent--all off completely, so that even if you recognize the word, you have no idea what they really are saying.

Kyushu = Chicago. Not too different, but eh, you see Da Bearss play?

Shikoku = Minnesota/Wisconsin. Oh, you betcha! Theyur kinda frooty, dontcha know?

Hokkaido = somewhere near an Indian reservation, where they speak normal English, but native American words pop up randomly in conversation. That's the only analogy I can come up with to explain the random Ainu in Hokkaido-ben.
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