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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
I don't know, I've barely heard it, but there are a lot of extra Z's in there. Ask 'domer, he was up that way last week I think.


Only rode the train through on the way to Hokkaido. Did spend a few days in Yamagata a year or two ago for work, but didn't really notice anything odd. I wasn't dealing with too many locals.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Well, see, you were writing in Japanese, so I *assumed* you meant in Japanese... Just Kidding

Yes, my bad. I have this problem where sometimes my brain fails to consciously register which language I'm actually using -- it's all just meaning to me. As a result, it was a minute or two after I'd actually posted that I realised I'd forgotten to switch languages... Embarassed

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Yeah, it's virtually impossible, I'd think. It's not like you can substitute a Southern accent for a Kansai accent or something.

Oh, crap, I'd never try to substitute accents between languages; the matches are never good enough (well Australian slang and Tōhoku-ben appear to share the same degree of incomprehensibility for other native speakers of what is ostensibly the same language... Very Happy)

I was thinking more of whether it might be possible to use different or uncommon turns of phrases and the occasional rare or archaic word to convey the oddity of the dialect speaker's speech relative to that of other characters. It would get tricky if a story involves multiple dialects, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

Kyushu = Chicago. Not too different, but eh, you see Da Bearss play?


Have you ever been south of Kitakyushu/Fukuoka, particularly Kagoshima and Miyazaki? The intonation is all over the place, even someone who barely speaks Japanese will hear a huge tonation difference. Outside Kitakyushu and Oita, and to a lesser extent Nagasaki, Kyushu Japanese is very, very different.

Although, Nagasaki Japanese is sort of plodding and gutteral, so I'd buy the Chicago thing with that.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Although, Nagasaki Japanese is sort of plodding and gutteral, so I'd buy the Chicago thing with that.


Admittedly, I've only been to Kumamoto--flew in and out both times, so didn't even pass through the train stations. I'll defer to you on Kyushu.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Philippe wrote:
I was thinking more of whether it might be possible to use different or uncommon turns of phrases and the occasional rare or archaic word to convey the oddity of the dialect speaker's speech relative to that of other characters. It would get tricky if a story involves multiple dialects, though.


You could, I suppose--but it would get tricky.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

Admittedly, I've only been to Kumamoto--flew in and out both times, so didn't even pass through the train stations. I'll defer to you on Kyushu.


Intonation wise, Kagoshima beats Kansai, the intonation is further off standard Japanese - although it is a lot softer and sing-song, not sharp like Osaka. Although it is less apparent in the men of that area.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If Osaka's Brooklyn, what would that make Kyoto? Boston? I can't think of a related, but much nicer/less harsh accent. Kyoto might be best characterized as Tidewater Virginia.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Kyoto might be best characterized as Tidewater Virginia.


Diane Chambers from "Cheers".
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This question has probably been asked here before, but at the risk of incuring wrath (or at least annoyance) at asking it again, I'm wondering about the best way to "translate" some words without being cumbersome in the text of my story. I've been using "warrior" for "bushi". But what about "samurai"? What is the best way to "translate" that easily in a way that gets its proper meaning across but can be easily incorporated into a narrative.

Also, what I'm looking for specifically is a "translation" of ji-samurai.

To clarify, I understand what these terms mean myself, but am looking for a convenient way to represent them (one or two words at most, if at all possible) within a narrative.

For example, one of my characters has said he's a farmer, but then is later seen wearing the clothing of a warrior. So I need a way for this character to say something along the lines of "Oh, he must be a warrior who is paid to serve a daimyo but also farms his land when not fighting", but like 10 times less awkward.

Thanks.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Azuki Arai wrote:
I've been using "warrior" for "bushi". But what about "samurai"? What is the best way to "translate" that easily in a way that gets its proper meaning across but can be easily incorporated into a narrative.


You shouldn't *need* to translate "samurai"--it's a familiar enough word in the English speaking world.

Quote:
Also, what I'm looking for specifically is a "translation" of ji-samurai... So I need a way for this character to say something along the lines of "Oh, he must be a warrior who is paid to serve a daimyo but also farms his land when not fighting", but like 10 times less awkward.


"Part-time warrior" would work. There may be some explanation still involved, but it gets the idea that he goes to fight when called upon.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Azuki Arai wrote:


Also, what I'm looking for specifically is a "translation" of ji-samurai.


Why don't you just go with "Jizamurai" and explain what it is or make it apparent through context?
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Azuki Arai
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
You shouldn't *need* to translate "samurai"--it's a familiar enough word in the English speaking world.

...

"Part-time warrior" would work. There may be some explanation still involved, but it gets the idea that he goes to fight when called upon.


True, but the average reader might be confused if distinctions are made between "warrior" and "samurai".

"Part-time warrior" might work. I'll try it out and see how I like it. Thanks for the suggestion.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Azuki Arai wrote:
True, but the average reader might be confused if distinctions are made between "warrior" and "samurai".


Um, why? The average reader knows that the samurai were the warrior class of Japan. The average reader *doesn't* understand that they were also administrators, doctors, at times farmers, etc. You're going to have to put in a paragraph or two of explanation, but it should work out ok.

Quote:
"Part-time warrior" might work. I'll try it out and see how I like it. Thanks for the suggestion.


Without saying he's "National Guard", its the best I can come up with.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not to through this into a tauil spin, but just thinking, would satte militia work better? I know technically the National Guard is, but this would maybe get the idea across that bushi durning the sengoku period fought only for their lord. Just thinking out loud.
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
state militia implies some sort of organized force employed by the government of a state. There wasn't a "state" per se, and the forces weren't really organized as such. My use of "National Guard" was really a joke.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even using "part time warrior" would be confusing unless you take the time to explain what they are doing on thier "off time" and why they are only "part time" warriors. Which is why I still think "Jizamurai" would work -because either way, you'll still have to explain it, and at least if you use the Japanese word, it immediately gives you a proper noun to tag it rather than a descriptive.
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Wave Tossed
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps you could use "ji-samurai" and explain that it's a "farmer-samurai." I don't think that you need to translate "samurai."

I did have problems with distinguishing between "samurai" and "ronin." Because a "samurai" is a warrior (bushi) who serves a daimyo. The term means "servant." A ronin is a bushi without a daimyo to serve, so he isn't a samurai as such. Though sometimes, especially among the commoners, "samurai" was used in a generic way, to mean anyone in the buke (bushi) class, whether he was a samurai clansman or else a ronin.

In general, I use "bushi" as a generic to mean a member of the buke class. However, for a ji-samurai (farmer-samurai) within a clan's territory, I'm sure that "ji-samurai" or else "farmer-samurai" would be perfectly OK.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
"ji-samurai"


Just to clarify, it really is "Jizamurai" Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
From your friendly, neighborhood Literature Forum Daimyo: This thread: dedicated to the writing of samurai fiction, has now been "sticki-fied" so that it hopefully will continue to draw attention. Very Happy Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For Noriatsu no Usotsuki I used the term Jizamurai and simply defined it via context. All I did was say that they were poor and Akimasa's father farmed when he did not serve in the military.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am almost finished writing my book. It doesn't have much to do with the military class, it mostly deals with the farming class and with Japanese folklore and mythology. But there is one bushi in the story, a minor character but one who plays a crucial role.

The reason I'm posting here is because I wasn't going to say this character's surname, only giving his given name in the text, but I felt that that would not be doing him justice. But I don't really have a name in mind, and I don't really care all that much what it is. So I thought someone here could pick one for him. His given name is Itô, and he was a ronin who was recently re-hired by a strange lord of whom he has never heard.

What do you think? Who wants to give my character a surname? Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Itô" sounds far more like a surname than a given name ! Confused
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itou sounds like a surname to me, too, but hey, it's fiction.

Here are my picks for the surname, c/o the Kamakura-Muromachi Jinmei Jiten:

Iwamuro
Ôimikado
Shishido
Ten'yo
Nikaidô
Hideno
Makimune
Makabe
Maitana
Munakata
Yuasa
Nakanobayashi
Takumanoyama
Shobata
Kasugai
Uwajima
Takashinata
Sawamurano
Yamamomo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shobata has a nice ring to it. I dont like Yamamomo only because momo is a local slang term here for a stupid person.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Out of those I like
Makabe
Hideno
Kasugai

Quote:
Itou sounds like a surname to me, too, but hey, it's fiction.


But even if it's fiction it still sounds a false note. It might be better to find another given name. And use Ito as the surname.
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