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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject: aikido, kendo Reply with quote
Please excuse me if I have always misunderstood the principles behind aikido especially when equated with kendo or kenjutsu. I have always believed that a part of aikido is an interpretation of the sword arts applied to unarmed techniques. By this I mean these techniques use the swordsmans sensibilities to anticipate, engage and redirect to provide entry to a strike. Sword techiques are still a major part within aikido as a whole and could only be complimentary to the study of kendo or kenjutsu and indeed can not be considered as seperate in basis. If what has been transmitted by Sokaku Takeda is accurate Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ( the basis for Aikido) was passed down through the Aizu clan and we know besides other training for sure he learned Onoha Ittoryu Kenjutsu. Hence the swords influence throughout the art of Aikido. John
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: aikido, kendo Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Please excuse me if I have always misunderstood the principles behind aikido especially when equated with kendo or kenjutsu. I have always believed that a part of aikido is an interpretation of the sword arts applied to unarmed techniques. By this I mean these techniques use the swordsmans sensibilities to anticipate, engage and redirect to provide entry to a strike. Sword techiques are still a major part within aikido as a whole and could only be complimentary to the study of kendo or kenjutsu and indeed can not be considered as seperate in basis. If what has been transmitted by Sokaku Takeda is accurate Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ( the basis for Aikido) was passed down through the Aizu clan and we know besides other training for sure he learned Onoha Ittoryu Kenjutsu. Hence the swords influence throughout the art of Aikido. John


Since Morihei Ueshiba studied many styles of armed and unarmed combat, I belive the influence is very apparent. Aikido is versatile since many techniques that you can use to disengage an unarmed opponent,you can use on an arme done.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: aikido, kendo Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:

Since Morihei Ueshiba studied many styles of armed and unarmed combat, I belive the influence is very apparent. Aikido is versatile since many techniques that you can use to disengage an unarmed opponent,you can use on an arme done.


Having read his "biography" Huh? how much of his experiences (or even his life) can we believe?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: clarify Reply with quote
Hi, I am afraid that what i have previously posted may be misunderstood. The sword is the basis upon which all technique in Aikido is based. The trine is not just body, heart and spirit but is also bokken, jo and body. Similarity in technique with bokken or jo or unarmed technique are similar in base structure. Morihei Ueshiba who studied under Sokaku Takeda is pictured often with bokken showing its' importance to him. John
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen,

Although aikidou is supposed to contain sword-based techniques and principles I have yet to see an aikidouka exhibit sword techniques that would be effective.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with Matt, I have been doing aikidou since about the middle of september so please do not think I am saying this as fact. However, I do iai, and I can find several problems whit things such as:

1. When an aikidouka makes a kirioroshi/shomenuchi instead of maing an effective cut by cutting with the monouchi, they simply lower their hands. Therefor they are simpely scratching the person.

2. While speaking of kirioroshi/shomenuchi, when an aikidouka blocks said cut they place the bokken above the head with the kissaki pointing out. This is a serious problem. if this is done you are in essence trying to catch uchidachi's blade ha to ha, which is absoulute madness. I will not elaborate on this any further.

3. And to do a yokomen an aikidouka will make a cut that is almost identical to kirioroshi/shomenuchi except at the monent before the blade hits its target it diveges on a slight diagonal. The raason I have problems with this is because I am comapring it to a standard kesa giri. And also it would seem that the collar bone would cause problems, Unless one was an exponet of Jigen ryu Smile

These are my personal obeservations founded on what I have experinced which does not mean that all akidou practices are as thusly mentioned.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As many of you know I am an avid practioner of Aikido and also do Iaido and Muay Thai. I too have noticed problems with the way many Aikidoka attack whether with the sword or unarmed, however if the person crosstrains in other styles that use striking or weapons it can be a very effective art. I have been able to successfully utilize many of the Aikido techniques and principles against much more "realistic" attacks and from personal experience can say many of the Aikido movements do indeed have practical purposes. As long as one doesn't delude themselves into thinking that what they learn in the dojo will be all they need to counter any attack they might encounter.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:37 am    Post subject: aikido Reply with quote
Hi, This is an interesting conversation. Some of the fundamental differences between the 'do' arts and the 'jutsu' art are now becoming apparent. To quote Saito Morihiro "...Aikido is known by its' Taijutsu techniques. However, the Taijutsu movements are based on the movements of the ken. It is difficult to seperate those movements which are based on the ken from those which are based on Taijutsu. Rather it is a(n) harmonious blending of both that creates a single Aikido." I wrote an article earlier this year that addresses briefly the jutsu, do difference. See; http://www.johnstuart.biz/new_page_17.htm
John
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: aikido, kendo Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
maikeruart wrote:

Since Morihei Ueshiba studied many styles of armed and unarmed combat, I belive the influence is very apparent. Aikido is versatile since many techniques that you can use to disengage an unarmed opponent,you can use on an arme done.


Having read his "biography" Huh? how much of his experiences (or even his life) can we believe?


I belive some of the barebones stuff. I belive he did train in different stylres. The superman ki stuff i disagree with.Alot of the stories I heard of him portrayed him more of a lif elong martial artist then Neo from the matrix.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen,

There are a few points in your "article" that I would like to discuss.
Iaijustu, being battoujutsu since the use of the term iai did not come about until the early 20th century, does not necessarily exist entirely for the purpose of counter attacking. Many techniques in battou styles involve being the primary attacker, using the battou premise as a quick-draw attack.
Kendou is quite combative, it has just been organized into a sport in much the same way as judou is a combative sport application of jujutsu.
Battou techniques did not come into the historical record until the very late 16th century, just prior to the "peaceful" times of the Edo Jidai so they could not have been taught hand in hand with kenjutsu techniques during the previous centuries.
Boiled down to the nitty gritty, you are right that dou arts are generally more spiritually geared than their jutsu counterparts, but this is not always the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: edit Reply with quote
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Yes, very good, I will have to edit out the weaknesses you pointed out. It was originally a response to a correspondant in Italy. I will expand on the premise and correct my usage of terminology. Thanks, John
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: rewrite Reply with quote
Done. A little more comprehensive with some generalisation. John
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've prqacticed Aikido for 3 years but I can't tell which is better because I don't know everything about Kendo,but there is no point in telling which is better.Strange,we had 1 hour warm-ups and 1 hour practicing, and once a week 1 hour with weapons (boken and jo)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it unfair to tar all Aikidoka with the same 'bad swordplay' badge. Of all the sensei I know, or have come into contact with: Each has a different idea on swordwork. Regarding O sensei and his bokken, maybe it was a comfort thing.. When I was younger I couldn't sleep without my special charm.... Very Happy
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