Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Uesugi Kenshin
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Samurai History - Kamakura to Sengoku
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LordKenshin
Priest
Priest
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject: Uesugi Kenshin Reply with quote
I have to say Kenshin is definately my favorite Daimyo of the Sengoku period but I have a lways wondered, could he have defeated Oda Nobunaga. I know that he did defeat him at Tedorigawa and afterwards he was amassing an army to attack Oda due to his construction of Azuchi castle which was near the Uesugi border. So my question is could Kenshin have beaten Nobunaga?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't know.

But I know this. The Uesugi couldn't beat the Takeda, and the Oda *smashed* the Takeda.

Do the math. Wink


Tony
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Defeating Nobunaga on the battlefield, even repeatedly, was not enough.

Nobunaga lost battles and suffered reversals, against the Mori, the Asai, the Ikko-ikki, the Takeda, the Iga and Koga samurai, etc...

But he kept coming back and eventually smashed them all.

Nobunaga could call on many proven commanders with experienced armies that had fought on a much more diverse arena than the Uesugi. Many became 'titans' themselves and would eventually crush the Uesugi's formidable neighbors the Takeda and the Hojo.

Kenshin would have to go through these men.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LordKenshin
Priest
Priest
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
true but I think Kenshin would have given the Oda a good fight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
true but I think Kenshin would have given the Oda a good fight


In military terms, at the end of the day "giving someone a good fight" is useless unless you've WON.


Tony
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sword_saint
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
if u remeber though that the Takeda lost at the Battle of Nagashino because Shingen's son was an idiot at strategy. Reason the Takeda Cavalry was SMASHED...of'course Shingen shuoldn't have got himself shot in the head.
but i do agree with LordKenshin, the Uesugi would've given Nobunaga just as much a run for his money as he did with the Takeda.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Sword_saint
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Defeating Nobunaga on the battlefield, even repeatedly, was not enough.


its exactly true, like a cockroach. he took many losses during his battles all across the land, but Nobunaga was a great strategist and come back time after time to actually win.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
caocao74
Village Councilman
Village Councilman
Veteran Member



Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 46
Location: London but can't wait to get back to Japan

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sword_saint wrote:
...but i do agree with LordKenshin, the Uesugi would've given Nobunaga just as much a run for his money as he did with the Takeda.


But quite simply he never really had the chance because of his location, his neighbours and the continual threat of the Ikko-ikki to regional stability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LordKenshin
Priest
Priest
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
so then I guess I should be asking could Kenshin have defeated the Ikko Ikki rebels?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Algren-san
Togishi
Togishi
Veteran Member



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 135
Location: Hermitage, PA USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
Don't know.

But I know this. The Uesugi couldn't beat the Takeda, and the Oda *smashed* the Takeda.

Do the math. Wink


Tony


True but the Oda destroyed the Takeda under the leadership of that idiot Katsuyori. Kenshin had to deal with Shingen, who, easily destroyed the forces of Tokugawa Ieyasu at Mikatagahara. However I think had Kenshin fought Nobunaga the victory would still go to Nobunaga.
_________________
Pennsylvania is very unstable. I don't know how else to explain it.-My Japanese Teacher
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nakashi
Village Councilman
Village Councilman
Veteran Member



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Greenville, SC, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
Don't know.

But I know this. The Uesugi couldn't beat the Takeda, and the Oda *smashed* the Takeda.

Do the math. Wink


Tony


Yes, but Oda samashed Katsuyori, not Shingen. Therefore Shingen would have probably been the best if he had not died so suddenly. I doubt it
_________________
"A Samurai cannot live under the same sky with the murderer of his father or lord".

Nakashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san wrote:


True but the Oda destroyed the Takeda under the leadership of that idiot Katsuyori. Kenshin had to deal with Shingen, who, easily destroyed the forces of Tokugawa Ieyasu at Mikatagahara. However I think had Kenshin fought Nobunaga the victory would still go to Nobunaga.


Ieyasu was defeated at Mikata-ga-Hara, not destroyed. Ieyasu inflicted heavy losses on Shingen later that night at the battle of Saigadake.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caocao74 wrote:


But quite simply he never really had the chance because of his location, his neighbours and the continual threat of the Ikko-ikki to regional stability.


Very true. The advantages that Nobunaga had over Kenshin.

Nobunaga had already destroyed enryakuji, the Asai, the Asakura, crushed the Takeda, eliminated the ikko-ikki at Nagashima and surrounded the ikko-ikki at Ishiyama Honganji, all by the time he confronted Kenshin in 1577.

The key to Nobunaga's success was central location. By 1577 Nobunaga had dealt with the threats on his borders and expanding his territory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Algren-san
Togishi
Togishi
Veteran Member



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 135
Location: Hermitage, PA USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:


Ieyasu was defeated at Mikata-ga-Hara, not destroyed. Ieyasu inflicted heavy losses on Shingen later that night at the battle of Saigadake.


Sorry that was a typo of sorts. I didn't mean destroyed in the sense that his army was completely annhilated just that it was routed.
_________________
Pennsylvania is very unstable. I don't know how else to explain it.-My Japanese Teacher
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LordKenshin
Priest
Priest
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I really dont like Nobunaga Evil or Very Mad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
nagaeyari
Asuka no Kami
Asuka no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2354
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Example of a bad post:

I hate asparagus and mushrooms!

Example of a good post:

I hate asparagus and mushrooms because: (1) When I was little my dad and uncle stuck asparagus down my pants, (2) Mushrooms remind me of the old Japanese monster film "Matango", (3) asparagus smells like death, (4) and mushrooms' texture is abominable.

LordKenshin, what's your reasoning?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LordKenshin
Priest
Priest
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 155
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
well I guess for his brutal tactics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Nakashi
Village Councilman
Village Councilman
Veteran Member



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Greenville, SC, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Besides his brutal tactics, he was a liar and lost his honor by not keeping his word, which was very important to the Samurai. Confused
_________________
"A Samurai cannot live under the same sky with the murderer of his father or lord".

Nakashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
maikeruart
Shushou
Shushou
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 870
Location: Southbridge

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakashi wrote:
Besides his brutal tactics, he was a liar and lost his honor by not keeping his word, which was very important to the Samurai. Confused


Almost like Akechi Mitsuhide.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Besides his brutal tactics, he was a liar and lost his honor by not keeping his word, which was very important to the Samurai.





Tony
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maikeruart
Shushou
Shushou
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 870
Location: Southbridge

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
Quote:
Besides his brutal tactics, he was a liar and lost his honor by not keeping his word, which was very important to the Samurai.





Tony


Sekigahara was a good representation of Samurai honor and honesty... Honnoji too
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakashi wrote:
Besides his brutal tactics, he was a liar and lost his honor by not keeping his word, which was very important to the Samurai. Confused


The heroic defense of Japan againt the invading Mongols involved attacking at night, slaughtering them in their sleep. Pretending to surrender to get close enough to kill them.

Favorite samurai tactic was to attack under cover of darkness, use fire to herd the enemy like sheep to a 'killing zone'.

Kiso Yoshinaka used the draw of honorable face-to-face duels to distract his enemy, while a second force came up from behind and stampeded cattle with burning torches tied to their horns, straight into the enemy. The enemy was slaughtered while being confused by the stampede.

Kusunoki Masashige, the IDEAL samurai excelled in ambushing the enemy, fighting while concealed, sniping and leading the enemy to booby traps. Logs were rigged to drop on the enemy.

The Mori used rumor and false information to make enemy commanders distrust and kill their own men.

Takeda Shingen's favorite tactic was to draw the enemy's attention to a face-to-face battle, while a second Takeda force makes it way around in secret to fall on the enemy's rear.

The Shimazu's favored tactic is a feigned retreat to draw the enemy into a prepared ambush, where hidden Shimazu forces surround and annihilate the enemy. In case of a retreat, the Shimazu leave snipers to lie among the dead as human booby traps.

The Shimazu and other clans used straw dummies wearing armour on the battlefield as decoys, or to make their armies appear larger.

Sanada Yukimura's heroic defense of Osaka castle. The Sanada barbican was well-designed as a 'killing zone'. Samurai making frontal attacks would be entangled and caught in the open while Sanada's men safely behind fortifications, hidden bunkers, just shot every one in sight. The siege of Osaka also recorded the first use of a 'land mine'.

Then, there's the 47 ronin.

All these acts of 'underhanded' tactics are seen as a 'positive'. The samurai not influenced by misguided sense of honor, but using common sense to achieve victory.


Last edited by evalerio on Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Algren-san
Togishi
Togishi
Veteran Member



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 135
Location: Hermitage, PA USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The notion that all Samurai were honorable and just in battle is found only in films like the Last Samurai. In that film the Samurai fought in the ideal honorable sense and look what happened....they all died! If an army has any hope of surviving in reality underhanded tactics such as those mentioned by evalerio are necessary.
_________________
Pennsylvania is very unstable. I don't know how else to explain it.-My Japanese Teacher
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
well I guess for his brutal tactics.


Samurai warfare saw acts of extreme brutality. Everyone did it.

On the battlefield, no quarter was given. Wounded men were killed. Men captured in battle were beheaded. Men fleeing the battlefield were hunted down and killed. All enemy dead decapitated. Heads were washed, perfumed, applied make up and impaled on a spiked board to be presented to the daimyo for inspection and appraisal. The severed heads could number in the thousands. All samurai armies did this, from the Gempei period up to the Shimabarra Rebellion in the Edo period.

At 4th Kawanakajima Kenshin and Shingen's men fought and killed each other for possession of prized heads during the battle.
Takeda Shingen displayed severed heads to force an enemy castle to surrender.
Kato Kiyomasa's men used severed heads tied to a bamboo pole as a standard on the battlefield.

Farmers and villages were recognized as assets to an enemy to be exploited or destroyed. An army on the march raped and massacred, burned villages, food supply stolen, causing terror and starvation.

Sieges caused starvation of civilians and soldiers where men contemplated cannibalism to survive. The suicide of a leader, or the deaths of his entire family demanded as a condition of surrender. The fall of a castle often resulted in bloodbaths where entire garrisons were wiped out.

The samurai armies in Korea displayed brutality against civilians that would make Nobunaga look like a boy scout.

To survive and prevail in those times, you had to be as brutal as, or more, than your neighbors.


Last edited by evalerio on Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Forum Shogun



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 9481
Location: Honolulu, HI

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...All of which makes that false "Honorable Samurai" myth look absolutely inane.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Samurai History - Kamakura to Sengoku All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group