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Nakashi
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But an appeal for mercy was not always in vain, correct? Crying or Very sad
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While I can't provide specific examples like Evelario and other great members, I do know the following:

If Samurai A was compassionate and Samurai B was not....Village Idiot Offender #1 named Nagaeyari would have a better chance of being given mercy by Samurai A.

Belonging to a class system doesn't cancel out natural instincts.

After all, a samurai was a human. Humans can be real jerks. Or, they can be compassionate.

It all depends what type of person you're pleading with and what side of the futon they woke up on in the morning.
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Baian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobunaga's portrayal as an evil man is overdone.
I think it mostly comes from today's view of his attack on mt. Hiei. I've never read anywhere that any lord at the time considered him more 'evil' than any other.
I do agree he messed up sometimes, but mercy in those days were nothing more than strategic decisions for some, in my opinion.

Edit: regarding previous post, I agree.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakashi wrote:
But an appeal for mercy was not always in vain, correct? Crying or Very sad


Well, it could be seen as a sign of weakness and get you crucified.

And everyone's loveable monkey hideyoshi wasn't above it even in his "early" days - he had Saito Toshimitsu (a supporter of Akechi Mitsuhide, who actually tried to convince him to not attack Nobunaga) crucified, and his body left exposed in kyoto in 1582.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakashi wrote:
But an appeal for mercy was not always in vain, correct? Crying or Very sad


As examples of Oda Nobunaga's enemies in comparison to him.

While Nobunaga and Ieyasu's armies marched to Nagashino castle's relief, Torii Sune'emon tried to sneak past the Takeda lines to tell the Nagashino garrison that help was on the way. But Sune'emon was captured and crucified in front of the walls of Nagashino.

During the siege of Takato castle Oda Nobutada sent a Buddhist priest as an emissary to mediate. Takeda Shingen's son Nobumori cut off the priest's nose and ears before sending him back.

An offer of 'mercy' was sometimes brutally rejected.
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LordKenshin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
interesting. Thats the problem with movies they tend to portray things the wrong way
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
interesting. Thats the problem with movies they tend to portray things the wrong way


I have a DVD of 'Takeda Shingen'. Imagawa Yoshimoto was like a mafia godfather, Oda Nobunaga acts like Dracula, Tokugawa Ieyasu is a loud spoiled brat and Uesugi Kenshin is a fashion model and raving lunatic. Shocked
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Baian
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
LordKenshin wrote:
interesting. Thats the problem with movies they tend to portray things the wrong way


I have a DVD of 'Takeda Shingen'. Imagawa Yoshimoto was like a mafia godfather, Oda Nobunaga acts like Dracula, Tokugawa Ieyasu is a loud spoiled brat and Uesugi Kenshin is a fashion model and raving lunatic. Shocked


That sounds almost accurate! Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baian wrote:


That sounds almost accurate! Smile


I recently was able to watch and compare both Shintaro Katsu (Zatoichi) in 'Dokugan-ryu Masamune' and Akira Emoto in 'Komyo ga Tsuji' play the role of Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

Almost identical in portraying Hideyoshi as crude, 'monkey-like' and 'low-born' who would pee in front of others. Shocked
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:


I recently was able to watch and compare both Shintaro Katsu (Zatoichi) in 'Dokugan-ryu Masamune' and Akira Emoto in 'Komyo ga Tsuji' play the role of Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

Almost identical in portraying Hideyoshi as crude, 'monkey-like' and 'low-born' who would pee in front of others. Shocked


I really liked Takenaka Naoto's "Hideyoshi", but I think that played up the positive aspects way too much. I like Akira Emoto's Hideyoshi, he's pretty shifty and you can never really tell if you can trust the guy. Probably more realistic.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
I like Akira Emoto's Hideyoshi, he's pretty shifty and you can never really tell if you can trust the guy. Probably more realistic.


He has certainly influenced me to make changes to the Hideyoshi figure I am working on. I will be doing Akira Emoto's face for this one, as well as trying to capture his 'body language'! Very Happy
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jemmus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Uesugi Kenshin Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
I have to say Kenshin is definately my favorite Daimyo of the Sengoku period but I have a lways wondered, could he have defeated Oda Nobunaga. I know that he did defeat him at Tedorigawa and afterwards he was amassing an army to attack Oda due to his construction of Azuchi castle which was near the Uesugi border. So my question is could Kenshin have beaten Nobunaga?


Kenshin's my favorite too, but I don't think he could have taken out Nobunaga. Kenshin did an amazing things, considering his position as a comparatively rural, backwater daimyo. But he doesn't seem to have a lot of talent for the diplomatic maneuvering and politic power-building side of things. That would have been a real long-term weakness against a political and grand strategy genius like Nobunaga. In a field battle, though, I bet his Echigo bushi would have given the Oda quite a wicked fight.

To me, it's like Kenshin comes out of an earlier generation and era than Nobunaga. His way of thinking seems to be much more traditional and much less "modern" than Nobunaga's (and then Hideyoshi's and Ieyasu's).
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
The samurai armies in Korea displayed brutality against civilians that would make Nobunaga look like a boy scout.


Is still there that hill "brought back" from Korea ?
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
Is still there that hill "brought back" from Korea ?


The Mimizuka in Kyoto, filled with the ears and noses of the Korean dead? Yep. There are some pictures here.
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LordKenshin
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
well it would have been interesting to see him fight the Oda
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The Mimizuka in Kyoto, filled with the ears and noses of the Korean dead?


Wow. I've never heard of that before.
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Nakashi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gory! Shocked
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Baian
Ashigaru Kumigashira
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
Tsubame1 wrote:
Is still there that hill "brought back" from Korea ?


The Mimizuka in Kyoto, filled with the ears and noses of the Korean dead? Yep. There are some pictures here.


Yet another reason for the all-knowing, all-mighty Korea to complain about...
I didn't think they would have kept it until today...not that much remains.
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jemmus
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
well it would have been interesting to see him fight the Oda


On the topic of Kenshin, I thought you might find this interesting: A Japanese biography if Kenshin published around 1999 theorized that he had the psychological condition "multiple personality disorder." I guess we can add that one to the theories that he a) was gay, and B) that he was actually a (very masculine) woman in disguise.

It's too bad more isn't known about him. Who knows, maybe someday some new historical sources will be discovered that will give us a better description of him. Otherwise I guess we'll always just be stuck with guesses and conjecture.
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Nakashi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weird! Confused
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Naomasa298
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
jemmus wrote:
I guess we can add that one to the theories that he a) was gay, and B) that he was actually a (very masculine) woman in disguise.


So I guess that makes him(?) a gay, cross-dressing, mentally disturbed alcoholic? Shocked

And a damn good general to boot.
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maikeruart
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Naomasa298 wrote:
jemmus wrote:
I guess we can add that one to the theories that he a) was gay, and B) that he was actually a (very masculine) woman in disguise.


So I guess that makes him(?) a gay, cross-dressing, mentally disturbed alcoholic? Shocked

And a damn good general to boot.


Patton meets Buffalo Bill....yeah
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Nakashi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
LOL ROTFLMAO
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:


Patton meets Buffalo Bill....yeah


"It puts the lotion on the yoroi. It PUTS the LOTION on the yoroi! Where's my sake? Sake!"
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
Wow. I've never heard of that before.


It was too impractical to send whole heads back to Hideyoshi, so the samurai shipped back pickled ears and noses to Hideyoshi instead. Ya gotta present your war trophies, you know?
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