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LordKenshin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:08 am    Post subject: about Kenshin again Reply with quote
someone stated earlierin another topic that Kenshin all toll only had 20,000 men. Then why is it said that he had 30,000 at the battle of Tedorigawa? and Im sure that wasnt his whole army. he wouldnt have left his other provinces unguarded
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 20,000 Uesugi troops was three years after Kenshin's death. The Uesugi army was reduced in size as the Uesugi had fought amongst themselves for clan succession, and losing territory to the Oda.

Others would have more detailed information. As I understand it, the battle of Tedorigawa took place in Kaga province, outside of Kenshin's territory.

Nobunaga invaded Kaga province and Kenshin entered Kaga to confront Nobunaga. Kenshin's army was bolstered by local troops in Kaga province, increasing it's size.

Kenshin could move with a large force because, the Takeda had been reduced in strength due to Nagashino and was threatened by the Tokugawa, and Nobunaga had the bulk of his forces in the invasion of Kaga.

Nobunaga was defeated at Tedorigawa, but one of his generals who was with him at Tedorigawa would eventually rule Kaga province, Maeda Toshie.

The size of samurai armies always fluctuated depending on the times. 'Local' troops, depending on the political climate could fight for one side or the other.


Last edited by evalerio on Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I still think if Kenshin lived Nobunaga might have lost. Kenshin was a clever man and a great strategist
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
I still think if Kenshin lived Nobunaga might have lost. Kenshin was a clever man and a great strategist


You keep forgetting, Kenshin was not just up against Nobunaga. Men like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Maeda Toshie were with Nobunaga. These men would become even more powerful than Nobunaga.

Kenshin didn't have 'titans' among his generals. Nobunaga did. Even the 'officers' serving under Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were forces to be reckoned with.


Last edited by evalerio on Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
LordKenshin wrote:
I still think if Kenshin lived Nobunaga might have lost. Kenshin was a clever man and a great strategist


You keep forgetting, Kenshin was not just up against Nobunaga. Men like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Maeda Toshie were with Nobunaga. These men would become even more powerful than Nobunaga.


True. did Mitsuhide ever have anything to do Kenshin? because imagine if Kenshin lived and was able to ally himself with Mitsuhide after Nobunagas death.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is no guarantee that Akechi Mitsuhide would have carried out the assassination if Kenshin had lived on to be a continuing threat.

You change one variable, you change a lot in the sequence of events. If Kenshin lived on, the political climate would likely be different. Kenshin might have advanced on Nobunaga with the large army he put together and Akechi Mitsuhide might have been part of the Oda army to confront Kenshin.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I guess your right.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
You keep forgetting, Kenshin was not just up against Nobunaga. Men like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Maeda Toshie were with Nobunaga. These men would become even more powerful than Nobunaga.

Kenshin didn't have 'titans' among his generals. Nobunaga did. Even the 'officers' serving under Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were forces to be reckoned with.


I am not certain I buy your "titans" argument. The Uesugi had plenty of capable generals. Of course these men would have to be in a position to become, as you say, "titans" but had Kenshin lived a few more years, it is difficult to entirely rule out the possibility that the Uesugi might have derailed the rise of the Oda.

As far as I can discern Kenshin had something of a quixotic streak in him, as can be seen in various campaigns that represented notable military achievements but in reality yielded little gain for his clan. I suspect that had Kenshin lived for a few more years, he might well have thrown all of the resources of the Hokuriku into defeating the Oda. Even if he was only successful in delaying Nobunaga's consolidation and expansion, such a delay might have provided the Mori with not only a respite but an opportunity as well. Rising clans such as the Shimazu of Kyushu would also have had more time to consolidate their gains.

Yes, this is all merely speculation, but Kenshin, in fact, was one of the few men who had a real chance to stop Nobunaga's rise to power after the latter gained control of Kyoto.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I like the way you think
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
I like the way you think


Kenshin fans... sheesh.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
LordKenshin wrote:
I like the way you think


Kenshin fans... sheesh.



well then who do you like?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:



well then who do you like?


I'm not nearly as nuts about anyone as you are about Kenshin Shocked

I'm more interested in the incidents and episodes that lend themselvesto the big picture, like the events surrounding Hisatake Kuranosuke's invasion of Southern Iyo province under the order of Chosokabe Motochika, which went fairly well until he was shot and killed by an arquebus during the siege of Okamoto castle in 1570. In fact, the defender of that castle, Doi Kiyoyoshi, went on to survive until 1629, and one of his relatives wrote a record of his life before he died, the Kiyoyoshi-ki (which I'd like to get my hands on, but it costs around $90).

Basically the smaller events that contribute to the big picture.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I see. well that is interesting as well but I tend to look at the people and I usually find one who I just really like. I mean Kenshin isnt the only guy I like. I like Shingen also a few others but next to Kenshin my other all time favorite person would be Liu Bei from ancient China. he was a great man
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LordKenshin wrote:
I see. well that is interesting as well but I tend to look at the people and I usually find one who I just really like. I mean Kenshin isnt the only guy I like. I like Shingen also a few others but next to Kenshin my other all time favorite person would be Liu Bei from ancient China. he was a great man


Yeah, but it is more interesting to see how those people interconnect with everyone around them, at leaset IMO. You can't really learn much about a person if everything you look at is out of the context of the time, place, and people they were around. You could be a fan of Shingen, but if you don't know about his rise to power, or if you don't know about Shingen, or the specifics of the battles of Kawanakajima, you're missing out. Here are some translations I did a few years ago, since they are "kenshin related":

While Shingen was alive, he said "Kenshin is an honorable and just man. He has no equal in the realm." In 1573, when Shingen died of illness on campaign, his final message to Katsuyori was "If you ask Kenshin for assistance, he will not refuse. He will definately assist you." Shingen recognized that Kenshin was an honorable man with a strong sense of duty and justice.

Kenshin heard of Shingen's death while eating a meal at Kasugayama. He threw his chopsticks without thinking, saying "He was my rival for any years, but the great general who was a pillar of the Kantou warrior families has been lost. It is truly a shame." It is recorded that he wept at the news.

According to another source, Kenshin said "Shingen is a hero of the realm. For the next three days, the castle (and surrounding samurai residences) are forbidden to play music. More than just out of respect for Shingen, this is also to show respect to the god of war." After this he withdrew.

------

Kenshin - The tactical genius leader of the 'Honorable Army'.

Kenshin was a valorous with a chivalrous spirit who prized justice and order. His speach and actions were always passionate and direct (to the point).

His personality is reflected in his military operations (movements), which were 'colored' by his chivalry. He would help the weak and crush the strong.

Kenshin admired Minamoto Yoshitsune, and it is recorded in the "Meishougenkouroku" that he said, "I learned martial skills/tactics from Yoshitsune. People read the Heike as an old story. It doesn't benefit them. When I read of his military affairs, I compare myself to him.

Kenshin's genius for battle command came from ardent adoration of Minamoto Yoshitsune as well as his own battle experience.

Kenshin personally rode with his troops, moving among them in all directions, instantly being able to put together a formation as he pleased, and lead from the front.

Because of this, the morale of his troops was high, and the maneuvers were always done promptly. This just/honorable army of the Kantou would appear like the wind in the various places of the Kantou, Hokuriku, Shinano, in sweeping conquest.

----

Fate? The Minamoto and Taira "Blood Feud"

Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen were lifelong enemies who battled continuously.

Over the five battles at Kawanakajima, the fiercest battle was the fourth battle took place in 1561, in which the total killed in battle were about 8000.

In this battle, Kenshin rode alone into Shingen's headquarters slashed at him, however the actual issue of victory or defeat was indecisive.

"The Dragon of Echigo", Kenshin, was the second son of the Echigo Shugo Nagao Tamekage. The Nagao clan was one of the "eight clans of the Kantou" (Bandou Hachiheishi) which were descended from Emperor Kammu. Meanwhile the "Tiger of Kai", Shingen, was descended from the younger brother of Hachimantarou Yoshiie, Shinra Saburou Yoshimitsu, who was descended from Emperor Seiwa, making Shingen part of the Kai Genji.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thank you very much Kitsuno. I really enjoyed that. if you ever have anything else let me know thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You might find this interesting:

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Arakawa_Nagazane
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LordKenshin
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ah thanks you. kagemusha means their double right? like the movie
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That article was interesting. Is there any record of Shingen and Kenshin ever meeting face to face at all (discounting that incident as being between their doubles)?

Of all the pre-Toyotomi era daimyo, Kenshin is one of my "favourites" too, but although I think he *should* have done better, I'm not entirely convinced he *could* have done better, not without other events going his way. I have to agree with evalerio's assessment of the lack of titans amongst Kenshin's men - although Kenshin had no lack of good generals, there is a difference between good generals and great generals. As good as they may have been, I don't think you can compare the likes of Kakizaki Kageie and Murakami Yoshikiyo with Hideyoshi and Ieyasu.

It may be due to the fact that the Uesugi generals are generally (no pun intended) not as well documented as their Takeda counterparts, but as a whole, the Takeda seemed to have more capable officers - people like Baba Nobufusa and in particular, Sanada Masayuki (someone whose actions in delaying Tokugawa Hidetada might have been decisive at Sekigahara, had other events not happened).

I still think Shingen fans are worse though Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Naomasa298 wrote:
That article was interesting. Is there any record of Shingen and Kenshin ever meeting face to face at all (discounting that incident as being between their doubles)?


I don't think they ever did, which was part of the cause of the "confusion" at 4th Kawanakajima. I've read that they never met, but obviously I haven't read everything.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Naomasa298 wrote:
That article was interesting. Is there any record of Shingen and Kenshin ever meeting face to face at all (discounting that incident as being between their doubles)?

Of all the pre-Toyotomi era daimyo, Kenshin is one of my "favourites" too, but although I think he *should* have done better, I'm not entirely convinced he *could* have done better, not without other events going his way. I have to agree with evalerio's assessment of the lack of titans amongst Kenshin's men - although Kenshin had no lack of good generals, there is a difference between good generals and great generals. As good as they may have been, I don't think you can compare the likes of Kakizaki Kageie and Murakami Yoshikiyo with Hideyoshi and Ieyasu.

It may be due to the fact that the Uesugi generals are generally (no pun intended) not as well documented as their Takeda counterparts, but as a whole, the Takeda seemed to have more capable officers - people like Baba Nobufusa and in particular, Sanada Masayuki (someone whose actions in delaying Tokugawa Hidetada might have been decisive at Sekigahara, had other events not happened).

I still think Shingen fans are worse though Very Happy


While I agree that when one looks at the history of late Sengoku Japan, the outstanding figures of the period seem to come overwhelmingly from those in orbit of Oda Nobunaga. In a way though that should be hardly surprising since the winners generally get to write the historical record.

Let me say up front that Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, and Ieyasu are clearly giants of history whose efforts resulted in the unification of feudal Japan. I do not question their abilities or contributions.

What I most seriously question is the assertion that the Uesugi would have been unable to supply the talent had their clan emerged as the dominant faction instead of the Oda. For one, we are not in an ideal position to project how well Uesugi leaders would have fared with expanded territories and military forces. Secondly, it is well to remember that to a large degree success draws men of ability. It was success that drew men like Yamamoto Kansuke to Shingen, and Akechi Mitsuhide to Nobunaga. I have little doubt that had not the Uesugi expansion been derailed by Kenshin's death and the subsequent Otate no Ran, the Uesugi would have been no less ably led than any of the other great clans.

As for Shingen's generals being superior to those of Kenshin, I simply cannot see how the events of the rivalry between their respective clans would support such a conclusion. If such were true, Shingen should have regularly defeated Kenshin at Kawanakajima on grounds of having superior numbers as well as better generals (unless one were to posit that Kenshin was simply a significantly better leader than Shingen). It is important to remember that most of the information we have on the rivalry between the Takeda and the Uesugi comes from the Koyo Gunkan -- essentially a biased Takeda tract -- as such, it is hardly surprising that accounts of Takeda generals are more flattering and complete than anything related about the Uesugi.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with Almos. History and time are far too chaotic to say that the Oda were all Powerfull. If the Uesugi did grow, they very well could have had strong generals like Honda Tadakatsu.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Funny that no one yet has mentioned Kenshin's rampant alcoholism to the Kenshin fanboys here. It's great to pick someone you like, but it's quite another thing to elevate them to godlike status. No one's perfect, and it's pretty silly to say that "Kenshin would have done X had he lived". Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps he'd have drunk himself into a stupor and died of alcohol poisoning.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Funny that no one yet has mentioned Kenshin's rampant alcoholism to the Kenshin fanboys here.


Anyway, Katou Kiyomasa could beat Kenshin anyday. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
Anyway, Katou Kiyomasa could beat Kenshin anyday. Cool


Dude, you're SOOOOO right!!!111!! He totallly PWNED those TigERs in KOreea!111!!!!2@!1

Kenshin is TEH SUXXXXORZ!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Kenshin was all "I do not fight wars with salt," and my boy Kiyomasa woulda been all "Salt in yo EYEZ, beeyotch! Im in ur base, killin ur doodz!"
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