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In Pursuit of Himiko

 
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: In Pursuit of Himiko Reply with quote
Please post your questions and comments on this article in this thread.

However, issues related to "What is a Kofun" should still go in that thread. Organization is key for this to operate smoothly.

My question is this: on page 69, after Edwards brings up the Yayoi Hôkeishûkôbo 方形周溝墓, he brings up another Yayoi precursor to the 4th century Kofun.

What is this type of burial mound called?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Edwards goes on to say that a typical shape for this type of mound is the Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo 四隅突出型墳丘墓.

Does this mean that he's referring to the funkyûbo? If so, that's already on the SamuraiWiki, care of Shikisoku Very Happy

If not, it's still something I'm interested in.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's AM 0:35 here(tokyo).
I'll be back tomorrow.
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Azuki Arai
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
Edwards goes on to say that a typical shape for this type of mound is the Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo 四隅突出型墳丘墓.

Does this mean that he's referring to the funkyûbo? If so, that's already on the SamuraiWiki, care of Shikisoku Very Happy

If not, it's still something I'm interested in.


Were you answering your own question there? I re-read the page and that was the only answer I could find.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
Edwards goes on to say that a typical shape for this type of mound is the Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo 四隅突出型墳丘墓.

Does this mean that he's referring to the funkyûbo? If so, that's already on the SamuraiWiki, care of Shikisoku Very Happy

If not, it's still something I'm interested in.


Do you mean the Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo is same as the Yayoi Hôkeishûkôbo you mentioned earlier or not?

Well it's kind of similar.
Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo

http://www.z-tic.or.jp/p/yayoi/mukibanda/about/gaiyou/chiku/donohara/

Hôkeishûkôbo

http://www.city.hachioji.tokyo.jp/ginnan/rekishi/sub1.htm

It seems Yosumi tosshutsugata funkyûbo are seen in Sanin-Hokuriku areas.(The area along the Sea of Japan)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some terminology (listed mostly for my own benefit, but may be handy for others):

Funkyuu 墳丘 - A man-made mound or hill

Funkyuubo 墳丘墓 - Burial mound (funkyuu + grave)

Zenpou Kouen Fun 前方後円墳 - The name for the "keyhole tombs" ~ "front is rectangular/rear is rounded"
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How can Hashihaka be theorized to be Himiko's tomb if she lived in the late 2nd century, but that Kofun was created in the late 3rd?
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
How can Hashihaka be theorized to be Himiko's tomb if she lived in the late 2nd century, but that Kofun was created in the late 3rd?


Himiko's death date is listed as 248 in the Pursuit of Himiko text. Where are you getting late 2nd century?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...meaning she was likely an adult in the late 2nd century. Without a search function I can't find anything in that article, but at one point it says that she visited Korea in 171 AD or so. Now if she was of a reasonable age when she did that (say, 18 or so, although I would assume one would be older) then in 248 she would have died at the age of 95 or older depending on when she was born. I find that very unlikely, don't you? Bronze age medicine wasn't exactly a science Just Kidding
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you sure you're not thinking of Empress Jingu, who supposedly invaded Korea?

I'm not finding any evidence of Himiko visiting Korea...
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Last edited by Ashigaru on Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can't look at any texts, but if I remember correctly she is supposed to have ruled a magical 60 some years. Someone please correct me if my guess is way off.

We aren't to take the Gishiwajinden's account of Himiko's life at face-value, so it's possible she really wasn't born so early.

All I know is that it's widely accepted she died in 248 A.D., and had contact with the Wei much, much earlier.

Could this be that her brother who handled secular affairs handled things after she died? Could there have been a daughter that continued under her name or role?

We don't know--but it's fun to speculate!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
Are you sure you're not thinking of Empress Jingu, who supposedly invaded Korea?

I'm not finding any evidence of Himiko visiting Korea...


Somewhere in that article that I am incapbable of searching electronically. Is it in that himiko article about Jingu and the date she went? Since this is the only article I've read so far, it has to be in here.

EDIT: Found it, I took a look at crappypedia to see what they had to see if there were any sources listed - as usual pedophiliapedia didn't list sources. But it did say this: According to an ancient Korean history book, Samguk Sagi, Himiko, as queen of Japan, sent an emissary to King Adalla of Silla in May 172. - which, knowing wikipedia is probably not only wrong, but it was probably added by an 11 year old with internet access and a drooling problem.
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Found this on search.com, with similar postings elsewhere:

"According to an ancient Korean history book, Samguk Sagi, Himiko, as queen of Japan, sent an embassy to King Adalla of Silla in May 172. However, Chinese history books record Silla as having been established on 356, which casts doubt on this claim."
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
Found this on search.com, with similar postings elsewhere:

"According to an ancient Korean history book, Samguk Sagi, Himiko, as queen of Japan, sent an embassy to King Adalla of Silla in May 172. However, Chinese history books record Silla as having been established on 356, which casts doubt on this claim."


Funny, Wikipedia doesn't mention that. Another point against wikipedia. But wasn't there also Paekche and koguryo? It is probably just plain incorrect info from wikipedia. Search.com gets tons of stuff by coopting wikipedia info. If you do a search for "Abe Katsuyoshi", one of the over 1000 articles stolen from the samurai archives by Darin Fidika, you'll see it all over the place, because a lot of sites just batch download it because wikipedia is "open source". This also means that wrong information gets sent all over the internet.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
But wasn't there also Paekche and koguryo?


I thinking maybe you read a different article than I did, I don't recall references to any of this stuff.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:


I thinking maybe you read a different article than I did, I don't recall references to any of this stuff.


Just the Wicrapedia article.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I know this is probably a dumb comment. But reading about Himiko and her times is utterly fascinating. I've read about Empress Jingu in the Kojiki and Nihongi. I know so little about this period and thus I'm gobbling all this up.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
WT, I'm glad you're finding this interesting.

Did you notice the Bakumatsu reference in one of the readings? About the sonno movement asking for better care of the neglected kofun?

That was really interesting!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
Found this on search.com, with similar postings elsewhere:

"According to an ancient Korean history book, Samguk Sagi, Himiko, as queen of Japan, sent an embassy to King Adalla of Silla in May 172. However, Chinese history books record Silla as having been established on 356, which casts doubt on this claim."



Samguk Sagi which is the oldest historical record in Korea was written in 1145 so it's much newer than Chinese records.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humble Takuan asks: How does all this relate to Hideyoshi?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
takuan wrote:
Humble Takuan asks: How does all this relate to Hideyoshi?


Hideyoshi?

Umm...I guess Hideyoshi invaded Korea and Empress Jingu, in myth, invaded Korea? Furthermore, Empress Jingu was equated with Himiko by Scholars of Kokugaku. There's a connection Wink

But, really, huh?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh I just thought the scheduled discussion was about Hideyoshi. But, as you say, there is the Korean invasion crossover.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh I understand now. This is just sitting in there from last time. There's no concrete connection.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I moved this topic out of the forum, and accidentally clicked "leave shadow topic in forum", and it will be here now for the rest of eternity, and it p*sses me me off, but I can't do anything about it Laughing
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