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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Atsumori Reply with quote
I've seen 2 or 3 different "versions" of Nobunaga's "favorite" verse from Atsumori, so I want to try to see if I can get the original text version - this is the version from the online shinchoko-ki PDF:

人間五十年
下天の内をくらぶれば
夢幻の如くなり
一度生を得て
滅せぬ者のあるべきか (I notice this is followed by "とて" - is that just the particle tagging it for the following verb as it being "sung" or is that actually part of it?)

So, is that the "original" text? And is there anywhere online with the original Japanese text? I've found an old english version (which gave me no indication where this line comes in), but I'd be interested in seeing the Japanese version.
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The とて simply indicates that the passage is a quote.

This site has the full text for the Noh Atsumori, but it notes that the famous quote isn't present at all in the Noh version, only in the Kouwakamai (a different kind of theatre) version. I haven't had any luck finding an online transcription of the Kouwaka Atsumori (Nobunaga's favorite phrase is all over the place, however), but the Kouwakamai songs/plays were collected in books called "Mai no Hon". Searching for 幸若舞 and 舞の本 might help narrow down your search.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ashigaru wrote:
The とて simply indicates that the passage is a quote.

This site has the full text for the Noh Atsumori, but it notes that the famous quote isn't present at all in the Noh version, only in the Kouwakamai (a different kind of theatre) version.


If figured the とて had some sort of purpose like that. Like I said, I read the English version and didn't see anything remotely like it, so it makes sense that it isn't in the Noh version. Strange though.
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Tai
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Atsumori Reply with quote
I appreciate you both posting the info on Noh Atsumori. We returned from Japan and my wife bought a DVD that we both really enjoyed. It is hard to find any info on it. Done in 1992 and is simply called ODA NOBUNAGA and stars Watanabe Ken and Sanada Hiroyuki, Chiba no Sonny, Way Tomaisaburo. I mention a few of the actors because none of them have any info on this fine movie. At 4 hrs long, it has a very well enacted Kouwakamai by Ken. Separately it has an outtake with a famous Noh instructor giving Ken some instruction.
Anyway I appreciate your post now I know that there is not much published on this subject. I did not think it would be hard to find.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
u mean Taira no Atsumori???
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
MexSamurai wrote:
u mean Taira no Atsumori???


Taira no Atsumori is the eponymous character in the Noh drama "Atsumori." It is a line from the play -- or, rather, a variant play -- that is being discussed here.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
oh.. I got it. Arigato, AJBryant. bow
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[img][/img]

Nobunaga exhibit a Noh Atsumori actor.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Atsumori will be performed at Oetenma shrine in Fukuoka Jan 20.

Here
http://www.fukuokayokatoko.com/spot_temple/chikugo/no_009.html
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I dont suppose any of you guys have nobunaga's favourite song and dance in mp3 format? If so, can I have it? (Assuming of course something written several centuries ago is now part of public domain ) Just Kidding
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Ashigaru
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not mp3, but Youtube has several varieties of the Kouwakamai Atumori. Here's one.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Ashigaru. Smile Loved it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found an article on Atsumori.

"Oda Nobunaga ga Aishita Maboroshi no Geino Kowaka Mai," Bijuaru Nihon no Kassen, 28 June 2005, pp. 20-21.

It has some decent information on Nobunaga and Atsumori.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
I found an article on Atsumori.

"Oda Nobunaga ga Aishita Maboroshi no Geino Kowaka Mai," Bijuaru Nihon no Kassen, 28 June 2005, pp. 20-21.

It has some decent information on Nobunaga and Atsumori.

nobu-chan


You know, it's kind of ridiculous to say you found some decent information on Nobunaga and Atsumori and not even reveal a smidgen of what that information is. So out with it! Laughing

It's almost as ridiculous as saying you can't stand baseball (soccer all the way), and then to post that it means a lot to you that Japan beat Cuba and the US in the WBC. I just don't get the meaning of posts like these. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just Kidding
The article has a picture of the Atsumori performance at Oetenma Shrine in Fukuoka. Performed every Jan. 20th. It also describes the orgin as well giving the history of Taira Atsumori. It gives more detail on a meeting between a monk from Owari and Takeda Shingen.

Owari no utsuke de Owaru ka. Tenka wo Toru ka

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The verse is also inscribed on a stone at Kenkun Shrine at Funaoka-yama in Kyoto:



I have been trying to find a good translation, but the only one I've found (just through Google and such. The library's closed at the moment. so shoot me.) is one from James Araki, which I must say I don't much care for.

In his Ballad-Drama of Medieval Japan (which I do not have my hands on at the moment, but which I found quoted online), he writes:

"Should man, after his fifty years, scan the sub-celestial realm, all will prove a dream, an illusion; to acquire life and perish not ... this cannot be."

He captures the basic gist of the whole thing, obviously, but fails to produce - if I might be so bold to say so - anything approaching a direct literal translation.

I attempted my own - which I will fully acknowledge is also horribly inadequate; and, after all, I'm no professional literary scholar and translator like Araki. I stumbled mainly over the phrase 下天, which just serves to make the translation as a whole seem all the more awkward.

I don't suppose anyone has come across a better translation?
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Last edited by lordameth on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man, what a blowhardy translation! There are much better (less ridiculous?) ones out there. Come on - "sub-celestial"?? Tenka is typically simply translated as "the realm" - as in "Nobunaga wanted to solidify his hold on the realm".
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Tenka is typically simply translated as "the realm" - as in "Nobunaga wanted to solidify his hold on the realm".


But it's not 天下, it's 下天, at least in Ameth's picture. I'm not sure what the significance is of it being "Katen" ("Shimoama"?) vs. "Tenka", but it's not Tenka.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
Tenka is typically simply translated as "the realm" - as in "Nobunaga wanted to solidify his hold on the realm".


But it's not 天下, it's 下天, at least in Ameth's picture. I'm not sure what the significance is of it being "Katen" ("Shimoama"?) vs. "Tenka", but it's not Tenka.


Serves me right for reading and posting from my cellphone- I'll blame the small screen.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought it was Tenka too at first.. but then I looked again, and realized Katen is not a word I am familiar with. at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
I thought it was Tenka too at first.. but then I looked again, and realized Katen is not a word I am familiar with. at all.

【下天】
〔仏〕下層の天。特に六欲天の下層の四王天を指す。四王天の一昼夜は人間界の五十年に当り、対比して人間の命のはかないことを表す。幸若、敦盛「人間五十年、下天の内をくらぶれば夢まぼろしのごとくなり、一度生をうけ滅せぬ者のあるべきか」
[株式会社岩波書店 広辞苑第五版]
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah. I should have thought to look in Kojien or another encyclopedia. Duh. How stupid am I?

Thanks for the definition!

Also, thanks to nagaeyari for prodding me to realize it's probably pronounced 'geten', not katen.

The proof in the Daijisen pudding: http://kotobank.jp/word/下天.

Mahalo, sir.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How is this for a translation? I've played around with the Japanese and trying to optimize many, many translations into something that actually flows fairly well in sensible English.

A man has but 50 years
to live under Heaven.
Life is but a fleeting dream,
Does anything last forever?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have no problem with that Obenjo. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Since I know you guys love Atsumori so much:

A blog post and video of the final scene, from a recent performance by Theatre Nohgaku in PA:

http://theatrenohgaku.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/atsumori-%E6%95%A6%E7%9B%9B-final-scene/
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